Transcript: Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Matters hearing, 16 October 2026

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:09:51
Public hearing of the Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Matters for the Inquiry into the federal election. In accordance with the Committee's resolution of 4 August 2025, this hearing will be broadcast on the Parliament's website and the proof and official transcripts of proceedings will be published on the Parliament's website. I remind members of the media who may be present or listening online. need to fairly and accurately report the proceedings of this committee. I now welcome Mr. Hales to give evidence today. For the Hansard record, sir, would you please state your full name and the capacity in which you appear before the committee.

Bruce Hales
0:10:29
Bruce David Hales. I'm appearing here as the senior leader of the Brethren, worldwide.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:10:40
Thank you very much, Mr Hales. Although the committee does not require to give evidence under oath, I should advise you that this hearing legal proceeding of the parliament and therefore has the same standing as the proceedings of respective houses. The giving of false or misleading evidence Sir, would you please state your and may be regarded as a contempt of parliament. The evidence given today will be recorded by Hansard and attracts parliamentary privilege. I now invite you to make a brief opening statement beforeavi proceed to

Bruce Hales
0:11:10
Thank you, Mr Chair, and Deputy Chair and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to make a short opening statement. I have accepted the committee's invitation to appear today and thank you for allowing me to do so via AVL. I acknowledge the work of this committee and its inquiry into the 2025 federal election.

On 5 October 2026, I wrote to the committee of my own volition, I set out the questions I understood the committee to be interested in and answered each of them in detail. I did so to assist the committee to understand the extent of my knowledge with respect to the issues that have preoccupied the Those answers that I had no involvement in the alleged activities of members of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church during the 2025 federal election.

I stand by those answers and will refer to them during the course of my evidence I have a copy of my letter here, with me today, and if you have any questions about the matters raised in my letter, I would be grateful if you could direct me to the relevant paragraph.

If you have any questions about other issues which are not covered by my letter... that are relevant to the terms of reference, I would be happy to answer those also. Despite this letter, I was threatened with a summons if I did not appear before the committee in an effort to is. the political beliefs and alleged actions of church members. To assist the committee I will address three key themes from my letter.

Personally, my role in the church. I am recognised by The church has no formal hierarchy, members as the most senior give so that members can live by the principles of the Holy Bible. This includes at times providing practical advice about personal matters such as relationships relationships, housing, job selection and career advice. I'm not a director of and hold no office in the performance the churches administrative. also have no authority over seek to influence, members' political choices, their differences, or how they take part, in civic life.

Secondly I had no involvement in the 2025 federal election. I want to and unequivocal. involvement whatsoever in any members tooks part in any aspect of the 2025 federal election, I did not plan such activities, I did not coordinate such activities, I did not direct such activities,. I did not fund such activities. This could not have been stated more clearly in my letter, the church does not engage in any political activity, and if members do so, they do so in their personal capacity. clear and unequivocal. I had no involvement whatsoever in relation to any members who I agree with my understanding of the Liberal Party or any political party or with any group or person involved in the 2025 federal election.

I made no payment or contribution to anyone. I do not commission or pay for advertising of any kind. What I know of our members' participation participation, I merrily learnt from the media. I do not agree with the harassment or intimidation of anyone, and my genuine sympathy goes to anyone who felt that intimidated at federal election. by any individual of any faith they should answer what they did, I cannot answer for them.

I ask you to consider the role of the Church, kind members and our right to religious freedom. Our fellowship is not a test of political conscience. No members placed in our fellowship depend on which party they support or whether they campaign or volunteer at elections.

Our member votes and whether they take any part in political life either by themselves or with other church members is a matter of their own conscience before God. It is not a matter for me and it is not a political activities, which, if they are conducted, are conducted in their private capacity. I do not control the lives of our members and nor do I seek to do so.

My role is to guide members to lead their lives in accordance with the scriptural principles as set out in the Holy Bible and the teachings and writings of the Church. Members do not need anyone's approval to take part in political activity. The Church keeps no register of members' political activities, there is no command structure directing them, and there is no person in the Church who can answer for them.

The Church is a religious organisation, not a political one. Our members, like members of any other faith in Australia, are an entire part of the political rights including by volunteering in their personal capacity. I do not personally do this and nor do I encourage others to do so. However, the church should not be targeted for our members' exercise of this right. I am deeply concerned that members of our faith feel that they cannot exercise their political rights due to the prospect of retribution against their church or senior church members.

If members of any an association, a charity or business, an association or charity or even a church, to decide to undertake a political activity together, that organisation is not responsible for their actions, nor is its leader. I ask the committee to reconsider whether it is appropriate that a faith leader of our church should be asked to account for the political choices of private individuals his faith. The same be asked or were expected from senior members of other faiths. Nonetheless I'm here to... assist the committee. I will do my best to answer your questions but I cannot answer a question fully today. I will provide a subsequent written response. Thank You

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:17:52
Thank You mr. Hales just so we all know members we're pretty tight The same would not be asked or expected from senior Minister, and I'll go to the Deputy Chair, Senator Colbeck.

Senator Richard Colbeck (Deputy Chair)
0:18:05
Can I just start by requesting that Mr. Hale's opening best

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:18:12
I think it has been sent to the secretariat. We're happy to table that or provide a copy of the committee, yep, And it will be recorded in Hansard as well, Senator Colbeck.

Senator Richard Colbeck (Deputy Chair)
0:18:25
No, no, well I would like to have it distribute if we can, so that I can, I would like to refer to it. Thank you. Can I first, Mr Hales,. some comments that you've been reported to have made with the committee Thank you I think, the last healing hearings with Mr Grimshaw reported in the media. I mean, it's a matter of concern to me. I'd be curious to get an understanding of the context of those reported comments.

Bruce Hales
0:19:06
Yes, so when were those comments made, which which which ones are referred to?

Senator Richard Colbeck (Deputy Chair)
0:19:14
Look, I think they go back while. They were made, while. They were made as a part of one of your broadcasts. get your context around those I'm

Bruce Hales
0:19:37
Yes that's understandable. I have great respect for the the Jewish faith and don don't believe I've ever said anything other than that, ever, but I myself came from a Jewish family in England. England, so that at and the that at times when the Jewish, there's been a reference to what's Jewish, it's been possibly in a light of mind.

But not, certainly, in any connection of being against the Jews or against their religion, I have my own judgment of their code and we do actually pray regularly for the Israel nation because of the terrible conflict that's going on there and we respect their views. So I don't really know to be director of it, in what the context was of the remarks. I'm just trying to look through correspondence I've got here, if I can find anything directly related to it, but I know that it's come up, but I do know that at certain times it was, as I said, in what I'd call a lighter vein, if that makes sense,

Senator Richard Colbeck (Deputy Chair)
0:21:40
Well, I'd be curious to understand what you mean by that, and I'm not sure whether they were readings from. I'm not sure. Well, I'm not sure whether they were readings from the Bible or something of that nature that were part of your broadcast, but I'd be curious to understand. I ask about the context. The comments have been reported, obviously, as part of various newspaper stories referred to in our last hearing, but I would like to understand what the broader context of those is. As I said before,. It's a matter of interest and concern for me.

Bruce Hales
0:22:21
Yes, well anyone familiar with the holy scriptures would know that, especially in the four Gospels, St Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, that the Jews aren't exactly referred to favourably because they were the ones that finally clam publicly for Christ to be crucified, which of course as we all know was carried out. the Lord himself was a a Jew.

The Apostle Paul, whose writings we go very much by, he was a very devout Jew before he got murdered by a corporeal appearing of Christ on the Damascus Road. That's another story detailed first in the Book of the Acts. Acts, Chapter 9. So, there's quite a bit of a history, you might say, to the Jewish question. question.

Senator Richard Colbeck (Deputy Chair)
0:23:43
In terms of your legal role within the church, what is your legal role within the church? On

Bruce Hales
0:23:52
legal role, the only reference to me this point in time that I know of is in one of the trustees, someone should be able to give that to me, it refers to whether anyone can be vouched to be a member of Plymouth Brethren. The general test for being a member of the Plymouth Brethren is that they They are admitted to and take part at the Lord's Su Supper, which is our holy communion conducted every Sunday morning.

But when it comes down to an actual person, and as as far as I know, I haven't ever been asked to decide on this, then I have the final word as to whether they are in fact a member of the Plymouth Brethren or not. But apart from that, unless I'm missing something, legally, I have no authority in writing apart from what has been accorded to me by members of the church unanimously and indeed somewhat

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:25:35
Last question, Mr. Colbeck, and I'm happy to come back to sigh you forgot time at the end.

Senator Richard Colbeck (Deputy Chair)
0:25:41
You're not a director of the church in that sense?

Bruce Hales
0:25:44
I'm not, I hold no official office or title. indeed, somewhat

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:25:54
Thanks, Deputy Chair. I might now go to Ms Campbell.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
0:25:59
Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Mr Hales, for appearing before the committee today. I just want to start by asking, you, you give sermons weekly, that's correct, yes?

Bruce Hales
0:26:14
Yes, we have meetings on the weekend especially that I attend, Saturday and Sunday, we would say, and they go for about an hour, and I suggest the subject or the scriptures to read, and then the members of the congregation come in and participate and then we do have as far as I'm speaking for myself, the main which we call Lord's Day, and they take the form of Bible readings which go for at Irvington, and then we have others in the smaller possible halls, which in Sydney is about 20, 30, throughout the afternoon.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
0:27:14
Thank you for that. Essentially on this weekly basis, you talk to all the people who are members of the Brethren. How are those sermons distributed?

Bruce Hales
0:27:27
They are recorded and then published centrally in London by the Bible and Gospel Trust.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
0:27:47
So what you say to the members is recorded, distributed out to everyone and then how are they interpreted in the lives of your followers? Are they discussed? Are they challenged?

Bruce Hales
0:27:59
Well, they're most likely or more or subject of interest and can also provide a subject matter for various and many church meetings that occur throughout the global situation at the Brethren churches.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
0:28:28
The interpretations of those sermons that you give, do you discuss those with your senior leadership within

Bruce Hales
0:28:43
the Bible and then discuss the particular scriptures. They're not pre-scripted, and what I say I get at the time, and they're not discussed afterwards because it just goes on from week to week. And there are many other readings taken by other elders, so that there's quite a good deal of currency of conversation.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
0:29:21
So what what you say in those in that forum and that distribution to uh you know far and wide uh do you think any of that would ever be misinterpreted?

Bruce Hales
0:29:37
Yes at times yes but um I leave that up to individual persons to interpret what they see and feel that I mean but um very very rarely do I have to go back and explain what I meant by what I said.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
0:30:01
So you very rarely have to go back and explain so you know that you're a long-standing member of the church you know essentially if if you very rarely have to go back it's clear what you say in uh when you say those words.

Bruce Hales
0:30:14
So I think it'd be fair to say that it's clear in the main um what I say is.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
0:30:18
Okay thank you um in your submission at part be in paragraph 10. You say that you led a Bible reading as you do, as you have said every week, and you describe that sermon as a worship and a call to prayer. I think this is the 20th of April 2025. Was that sermon broadcast any differently to your regular broadcast?

Bruce Hales
0:30:45
No, it wasn't. I'm just looking at it now. Did you say it comes up in question 11?

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
0:30:52
It's. In Part B, paragraph 10 of your submission.

Bruce Hales
0:30:59
Oh, yes. On April 25, I observed the state of the world and I appealed to the congregation to be more fervent and prepared for good government and benefit of all Australians and I said Australia needed to be happy again, smiling again.

Well that was a form of words that I thought up at the time so it was not something that I planned to say but I was aware by reading the media and by various discussions that I had from members of the public from time to time that there was a certain amount of discontent as I viewed it with the present government and that expression, happy again and smiling again, I can't quite accurately recall where I would have got that expression. There was a song on the Australian radio some many years ago as to, What's it called again?

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
0:32:20
That's okay, that's okay. I was gonna say, that's okay. That's okay, you know, it's it is it is a phrase that I haven't heard before, but very specifically that phrase happy again, smiling again, was in that sermon. The other thing that you said in that sermon was, for people to be fervent in their prayers. What did you mean by fervent in their prayers?

Bruce Hales
0:32:44
Fervent in the prayer means that there is a degree perhaps of urgency. I am concerned about the government of Australia. respect the government as such irrespective of the political party that's in much and look up to government power respectful light. at any particular time.

Senator Bridget McKenzie
0:33:18
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
It's Senator McKenzie. I've been in many Catholic churches and Anglican churches where the weekly prayers are for our country and for I look up to I'm just not sure how this actually refers to the term.

Senator Corinne Mulholland
0:33:33
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
Can we have some order here at the moment please? I don't know why we have Senators jumping in across questioning witnesses... Sorry, Chair.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:33:42
Yeah, no, Senator McKenzie, we're prioritising members of this committee to ask questions. I'm happy with the questions being within the terms of reference. I think Ms Campbell can continue. I'm happy to come to you at the end. So if you could please save your comments till then. Thank you. Thank you.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
0:33:56
So when you talk about fervent in their prayers... you are talking about sorry, sorry. that in relation to government and the concerns about government, yes?

Bruce Hales
0:34:10
It's just generally, when we pray... at our weekly prayer meetings and indeed at the opening and closing of every church session. is prayed for but no particular names Thank you very much. any political parties. It would pray for government, might do what's right and God because we're a Christian country and at the opening and closing of every church ep. should be. going by is Christianity.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
0:35:02
the phrase, but lead their lives. Later on, while we've been talking here, you said that your sermons are very rarely missed. interpreted and that it's clear what you When you said in your opening statement, you said Australia needs to be happy again, smiling again. Based, on your evidence, if those things are not misinterpreted, and those things are clear, When what do you think pinned them?

Bruce Hales
0:35:42
know, except to take the words as they came out. As I've just said, I I exactly recollect the origin of those words I used. but I'm just going back to you. Are you referring to what I've said in... letter that I just read out or something else?

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
0:36:14
I was referring to the Bible reading that you did on, in Part B, Paragraph 10 of your submission to the committee.

Unidentified speaker
0:36:26
You said

Unidentified speaker
0:36:27
your opening statement.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
0:36:28
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
opening statement. Sorry, in your opening statement you said, I do guidance. You said that you provide advice to your followers.

Bruce Hales
0:36:35
I'm just trying to refreshed that. Sorry. Sorry. That's okay.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
0:36:39
And then in the questions that we were were just asking, you said that very rarely were your words misinterpreted, and you said it's clear to them what they meant.

Bruce Hales
0:36:51
When I spoke in the... opening statement as I'm just trying to find the section. That would be mostly and private... can't find it or I said that.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
0:37:19
My notes say I do guidance. But I am cognisant that I only have one question left. My final question was, did you discuss the context of that sermon with your sons and the interpretation of that with your sons, given your testimony?

Bruce Hales
0:37:44
No I didn't. I believe they were present and in general I would never discuss the content of my readings or sermons with my sons.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
0:37:59
Because if you said, as you said, your meaning would be clear.

Bruce Hales
0:38:02
Generally it would be. Generally, understood, yes.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
0:38:05
Thank you very much, I appreciate it.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:38:07
Thank you Ms Campbell, Dr Ryan.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
0:38:09
Thank you very much. Mr Hales, you said in your submission to the inquiry that you described yourself as the church's most senior elder globally. You've done that again this morning. And you've said this morning that no one appointed you. How is it that you came to attain that position?

Bruce Hales
0:38:31
Well, I travelled widely overseas. My first trip overseas was 1972, so that I was known well globally by many, many individuals in theincarnate church and indeed I visited and have now visited every congregation worldwide. I was known and I was known as respected.

It's interesting you say that because just yesterday I was thinking after coming back from the burial of my father in January 2002 and thinking of the fact that the responsibility for the church globally now fell on my shoulders and then indeed within, within short period of time, the phone started ringing from various brethren around the globe. So that it's a bit hard for me, but it was a spontaneous acceptance of me as the leader so that I was looked up to, I was known and I think they felt that I was carrying, I was one to be able to carry the leadership on authoritatively and carry the confidence. all the members of the

Dr Monique Ryan MP
0:40:09
So a spontaneous decision made by 56 ,000 members of the church, is that right? That's right, exactly that. Thank you. Your father though, John. Stephen Hales, preceded you as head of the Church. Is it true that you did you once say of him that he was a sanct I don't

Bruce Hales
0:40:34
know. I believe it's true. I think he was a holy man of God. I don't hesitate to say that he was the head of me spiritually and he definitely will be in touch with the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
0:40:52
Thank you. Do members of the church refer to you as the elect vessel?

Bruce Hales
0:40:57
No, they don't and I don't accept that title. I believe I've said publicly that that title, in my view, belonged to the Apostle Paul, which was given to him by the Lord, when the Lord was giving instructions to Ananias in regard of having to do with Saul of Tarsus, and that's where that expression is is used exclusively.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
0:41:25
Okay, thank you. Do members of the church believe that you are a direct messenger from God?

Bruce Hales
0:41:35
Well I would think that they would say that what I get I get from the Lord.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
0:41:47
Is it true the church members look to you for guidance with respect to where they live,. What house they can buy, who and when they marry, where and what they study, what career they can pursue, whether they can own pets, their clothes and hairstyle, including the ability to bear facial hair, what places of entertainment they can go to and what holidays and travel they can undertake?

Bruce Hales
0:42:16
No.

Ben Small MP
0:42:17
Just a point of order on this one, Chair, like I'm happy to entertain other members' questions but this is so far off the terms of reference for this inquiry. The mechanics of the church and understanding leadership structures, sure, but this is patently ridiculous.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:42:36
I'll allow it, but I'll ask

Senator Bridget McKenzie
0:42:37
Hairstyles have no bearing on electoral matters.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:42:39
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
Thank you, thank you. I'll allow it, but I'll ask Dr Ryan to

Dr Monique Ryan MP
0:42:43
Alright. Let me ask you this. Mr Hales, can members publicly disagree with your ministry and your teachings and remain in the full fellowship of your church?

Bruce Hales
0:42:54
Yes they can. I allow for other views, or views other than my own and I would say that I'm sympathetic with different views and give them credit. When credit is due, I give them credit.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
0:43:18
Your position that members can challenge your decisions during church meetings?

Bruce Hales
0:43:24
Yes, if they wish to, absolutely.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
0:43:27
Okay, we've heard from a number of...

Bruce Hales
0:43:32
It would be rare because of, in general, they would respect me and respect what I say, but no, certainly I'm open to criticism and look, the brethren know that and I get letters that certain things that I've said and I don't hesitate to answer up to them.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
0:44:01
One of the questions is that members who have made submissions or former members of the church who have made submissions to this inquiry say that members of the church believe that your minister is spiritual or divine authority and that that being the case, it's not possible for members of the church to distinguish between something Bruce Hales personally favours or something that they should and need to understand that God requires of them. Are you able to address that question? Look,

Bruce Hales
0:44:33
I don't know what correspondence you're referring to specifically but there are persons that have gone and left the Fellowship and some of them, only a fairly small percentage have become sort of what we would say in opposition to us and again they're entitled you're asking me now, I don. No, I can't agree with that.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
0:45:06
Okay, thank you. Is it possible that someone, for example during your ministries, result in similar action occurring across a number of congregations without you ever issuing a formal instruction?

Bruce Hales
0:45:24
Well, Dr Ryan, I think when people get something I say their views but what you're sermon and then they go and expand on it or repeat it or promote it I wouldn't necessarily know at all when that's occurring and secondly again I've said they're and if they express it well it's up to the congregation where they are and and where that's been said, is to our agenda.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
0:46:05
Okay. Thanks, Mr Hales.

Ben Small MP
0:46:06
Chair, I'm at about eight minutes of this, so whose time is this coming up?

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:46:10
Yeah, I gave her

Dr Monique Ryan MP
0:46:11
the round of this, the last question,

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:46:12
and there were interruptions, Mr Small, and everyone's gone over including the witness. So last question.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
0:46:19
Last question. Thank you very much. Mr Hales, I'd like to return to the question that Senator Colbeck raised earlier regarding the question of your attitude to the Jewish faith. Do you deny that in a 2020 ministry you spoke of what you called the Jewish question and said that the sin of killing Christ was, and I quote, fixed on the Jews and that you referred to the domination of the Jewish people by the devil?

Bruce Hales
0:46:51
Yes, well, I'd have to look at the context of that, Dr Ryan, but I go by the record of the Bible, especially the four Gospels, and the accounts that are given there by those writers as to the trial of Jesus before the Governor, Pontius Pilate, and the confession that Christ made himself personally that's recorded and then leading on to his crucifixion. So that's what I would primarily go by and be governed by.

Unidentified speaker
0:47:29
Thanks Chair.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:47:30
Thank you Dr Ryan. Senator Mulholland.

Senator Corinne Mulholland
0:47:33
Thank you Chair and thank you Mr Hales joining us. In your opening statement this morning you have said that you had no involvement in the 2025 federal election. You didn't plan, you didn't coordinate, you didn't fund any activities and you also, also make this statement in paragraph 22 in your submission. There are a number of media reports relating to Gursum in which has been discussed in Ms Campbell's evidence relating to what you told members Thank you. that Australia need to smile again and off the back of to the committee what that relates to.

Bruce Hales
0:48:30
I can't, because I had nothing to do with those words. that recording your sons produced And I you I haven't seen the correspondence in which it applies to but they certainly didn't come from my lips.

Senator Corinne Mulholland
0:48:47
What I'll do is I'll give you, and you're most welcome to look this up at your own leisure, the news article Exclusive Brethren and don't vote. campaigning for the coal of the 28th of April 2025. The direct quotes of your your sons are in that article so if you want to make yourself aware of that material, you're happy to look it up at your leisure.

Further I just want to go through the timelines here. I I'm on limited time so I'm going. I'm going to keep moving. On the 13th of April you are is saying, make Australia smile again. it's a. And off the back of that recording, your sons are then recorded and sent out to membership talking about manning booths and also our volunteers fired up.

Now you're saying you can't recollect, you said it earlier, origin of that statement, but what we also have are media articles where it is reported and shown photos of that statement being used, electronic billboards placed in marginal seats across across New South Wales. in the same location where there are numbers of brethren in large numbers at pre-polling booths, within two weeks of your sermon, standing there in un collection, no cause or link, no knowledge of how that occurred.

Bruce Hales
0:50:22
No, and it might seem extraordinary…

Unidentified speaker
0:50:25
It does, it does seem extraordinary.

Bruce Hales
0:50:28
Exactly, and I can understand how you might find it hard to believe, but the fact is that I had no knowledge of the fact that I had no knowledge of the fact that I had no, what's the word, heart in planning them and look, I think if they'd asked me about them and ask permission. I would have denied it.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:50:53
Why would they...

Senator Corinne Mulholland
0:50:54
So you think that your sons deliberately didn't ask you about it?

Bruce Hales
0:50:57
Quite likely.

Ben Small MP
0:50:59
Er, hold up, hold up, Chair. What sort of hypothetical nonsense are we are getting into here?

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:51:04
It's a valid line of questioning, Mr Small.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:51:06
Ms Mulholland, please continue.

Ben Small MP
0:51:07
How is that a valid line of questioning under

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:51:10
Yeah,

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:51:10
Mr Small, you'll have your time shortly.

Senator Richard Colbeck (Deputy Chair)
0:51:14
This is not the Spanish Inquisition, Chair. This is ridiculous.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:51:18
Ms Mulholland.

Senator Bridget McKenzie
0:51:18
It's a lot like religious persecution to me.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:51:22
Ms Mulholland.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:51:24
Sorry, just before you go, Ms Mulholland,

Unidentified speaker
0:51:27
you said why would your sons need, to ask you for permission to do something like that?. So Mr Hales why would they? Yeah, you said if they'd asked me for permission to do, to participate in the election. Okay. All right. you. No, they didn't. Yeah, Miss Mulholland? them. Okay, Ms. Mulholland.

Senator Corinne Mulholland
0:51:52
We will have an opportunity next. Yeah, what I... The terms of reference of this committee are not about religious freedoms and not about religious discrimination as much as other members of this committee

Senator Bridget McKenzie
0:52:07
Clearly, not about religious freedom because this

Unidentified speaker
0:52:10
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
is, an hour, nothing to do with patterns. Sorry, sorry Senator

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:52:18
Mulholland. Senator McKenzie, you are not a permanent member of this committee and you've done nothing but interrupt other members of this committee during their questioning. I would respectfully ask you to cease doing that, As I said, I will come to you for your questions and comments at the end. If time permits, I'll ask you that you exercise some restraint, please. Senator Mulholland.

Senator Corinne Mulholland
0:52:47
Thank you, Chair. So, as I was saying, this isn't about religious discrimination, this is about the involvement in election, and we have processes and places for third parties doing to that. As I said, I will come to back of what you now know is involvement of members of your family in, in talking about our booths, our volunteers firing up, being involved in the election campaign. Do you see this as being involvement in the election campaign from your family

Bruce Hales
0:53:22
I don't know what you're referring to specifically. I've got, I've got four have various meetings and consultations completely apart and without my participation. Now that's why I was asking before when you were quoting some script as to where is that taken from? Is that from a newspaper or?

Senator Corinne Mulholland
0:54:00
So that's from the 13th of April, 13th of 2025 sermon and it's from that article that I gave you, the link to, the 28th of April 2025, so a couple of weeks after you gave your sermon and was distributed by your sons Gareth, Charles and Dean, they are quoted reported in the recording as saying, make sure our booths are manned and our volunteers are fired up each day in relation to

Bruce Hales
0:54:27
the campaign. That's not accurate. Sorry Senator, but that's not accurate.

Senator Corinne Mulholland
0:54:32
Explain to me why it's not accurate.

Bruce Hales
0:54:34
Well, are you saying that you're actually quoting from a transcript of a recording?

Unidentified speaker
0:54:43
I'm saying I'm saying that it has been reported in this article. That is what your son said. The article is incorrect.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:54:49
Well, it's also in your attachment attachment Mr Hales, where you've said on the 20th of April 2025, I appealed to the congregation to be more fervent in prayer for good gov 'r and I said Australia needed to be happy again.

And then those same words were in a media article on the 28th of April which then includes an interpretation of your sermon where your sons have interpreted that sermon and elements of it to make sure our boos are manned and volunteers are fired up every day to the ground game. To me it's clear that your sons interpreted your sermon as an instruction to campaign where interpretations decisions are rarely wrong. Do you accept that your sermon was interpreted as an instruction to campaign?

Bruce Hales
0:55:49
No, The other thing is, I do giving the booze manned, I think there was, and there was another one in conjunction with that, that I certainly never used those words and I don't recall them ever being used publicly or privately.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:56:33
I'm not saying that you used those words, Mr Hales. I think the version of events is you gave your—

Ben Small MP
0:56:39
Well, Chair, we're now at 10 minutes of Labor questioning just from this.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:56:44
There's a lot of interruptions, Mr Small, so we're going ahead with.

Ben Small MP
0:56:48
The importance of latitude, the bringing points of standing orders is not an unacceptable introduction. It is in-fact in line with the Senate standing orders on we are conducting misinquiries.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:57:00
Thank you, Mr. Small. I'm asked a question as the chair.

Unidentified speaker
0:57:03
I'm happy whose time is that coming from? cede my time to the chair, Is there a big... so many times to come by Mr Small and Mr Nancy.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:57:18
On the 20th of April in your own words you led a Bible reading that your congregation need to be more fervent in prayer for good government and needed to be happy again. I refer to paragraph 10 of your letter to the committee.

It was then reported that your sons did a video message which was then converted into a text message. How awesome was it to hear that recording on GMS. We should be freshly charged and motivated to give this all we've got, you know, and I'm paraphrasing in the interest of time, make sure our booths are manned, it's all in the extra 1%, keep up the ground game. So, again, was your was your prayer interpreted incorrectly or was it interpreted correctly?

Bruce Hales
0:58:08
Don't you think that what you're quoting that must have been said private. I have no, I've never been, I never heard that before. Those words, which you were saying now as following on, supposedly the reading on the 20th of 25. I've never heard those before. I'm sorry.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:58:30
I'm the 20th of they're your words from your statement, fervent in prayer, Australia need to be happy again.

Bruce Hales
0:58:38
You said there were certain things that were said publicly after that.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:58:45
It was a video recording that was reported in the paper. How awesome was it to hear that recording, your recording? That's the first I've heard of it. That's the first you've heard of it. The first you've heard of it.

Bruce Hales
0:58:56
I've first heard of it Thank you. And I don't have the source of those words, whether they're true or accurate, I wouldn't know. Who is the writer of the article?

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:59:09
Mr Michael Bachelard.

Bruce Hales
0:59:10
Yeah, well, in that case, I would question the validity and accuracy of what he's reporting.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:59:17
Are you saying the reporting is inaccurate?

Ben Small MP
0:59:20
Hang on. Again, Chair, at what point do I get to ask a question or at least another member of the Coalition?

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:59:25
You're up next, Mr Small. I'm going government, non-government. I've got this here and you're next. There are members of non-government that aren't members of the Coalition Mr Small.

Unidentified speaker
0:59:38
Yeah we've had one of them.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:59:41
Yes, and the next one is you. So if...

Unidentified speaker
0:59:44
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
I know. at like the 12th minute to be a six -minute block, but I'll... going up, yes.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
0:59:50
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
No, I'm sorry, it's... are you saying I'm going government, non of Mr Batchelor, that video message, that video interpretation of your Bible reading and that text message interpretation of your Bible reading, is false.

Bruce Hales
1:00:17
would have I have no doubt in questioning the accuracy of Mr. Bachelor's reporting because he's been at ititored for nearly 20 years and I'm unfortunately and I'm afraid that one has to say that accuracy is not part of his his bible

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
1:00:43
again sorry is that element of the reporting false i'm happy for you to take it on notice if you if you want to uh consider that but my question is thank you very much uh mr small it's your turn

Ben Small MP
1:01:00
thank you chair um mr Hales thank you for your time in appearing before the committee today i just want to return to your role within the just tie a couple of elements there. are you actually paid for your role within the church?

Unidentified speaker
1:01:17
No, I'm not.

Ben Small MP
1:01:19
Okay. So what is, what is it you like or?

Bruce Hales
1:01:24
Well, I'm retired now, but I was a tax advisor, re-ordered 50 years. And last year, I retired.

Ben Small MP
1:01:38
Oh, I'm sure you deserve a very happy retirement after 50 years on the tools, Mr. Hales.

Bruce Hales
1:01:44
I've got investments that have risen out of my own private savings and I've been well looked after by my sons who are all in business successfully so that I don't need actually to be paid by the church to survive and lead a comfortable life.

Ben Small MP
1:02:09
Thank you that's useful content. on the matter of business people, and you've just mentioned your sons are sexual on them, would it be natural for business people to take an interest in the government of Australia?

Bruce Hales
1:02:27
Well I think so. So that would be widely not in any way restricted to the Brethren community.

Ben Small MP
1:02:37
Quite right, in fact their spirituality would you agree it's a little yeah yeah exactly shifts would you accept that Australians can disagree strongly on politics whilst still respecting each other?

Unidentified speaker
1:02:54
Certainly.

Ben Small MP
1:02:57
Do you see any role for harassment, intimidation or other behaviour which would be illegal, in many senses, in our democracy?

Bruce Hales
1:03:06
Firstly, I very much object to any idea of harassment or intimidation. I don't agree with it, I don't support it and I utterly decry it.

Ben Small MP
1:03:23
Thank you, if I could just return to Mr Bachelard's reporting, I just want to give you you an opportunity to expand a little. You mentioned that there's been articles for 20-odd years. What do you make of that journalism?

Bruce Hales
1:03:48
I don't really know, I gave him opportunity quite some years ago to look through the whole character and nature of the church organisation. the church, He was invited even to the school. I remember that. I've never met him personally. But he seems to have some... given to him, To attack the church and its leadership and I'd have to say that it's somewhat of a mystery to me why why so can get quite so bitter and toxic at times.

Ben Small MP
1:04:38
Interesting. Have you ever met Mr. Albanese, the prime minister? I have not. Have you ever tried to meet Mr. Albanese?

Bruce Hales
1:04:49
We have written letters. The church has I've never been offered an interview.

Ben Small MP
1:05:01
And yet you're aware, obviously, he described describes your church as a cult in the 2025 election?

Bruce Hales
1:05:07
Yes, that term was first used by, I think, Mr Kevin Rudd. and And of course, I do not agree with it. One iota. We are not a cult. We are Christians. We are a Christian, but I have been the inception of the church I can't date 200 years ago, and from what I know of cults worldwide, I believe we bear any me. similitude to So

Ben Small MP
1:05:46
you've been publicly targeted as a church by two labour prime ministers and in relation The invitation to appear before this committee a media release was issued

Bruce Hales
1:06:25
by I think have treated me with respect and fairly. I can understand where they've got divergent views about political parties where you get, you know, you can get strong, very strong opinions either way. So I'm sympathetic with that, but I have to say yes, certainly I'm conscious that I've been targeted, but here I am today, I've turned up, I haven't objected,

Ben Small MP
1:07:00
I'm And I'm sure we're all very grateful for your time and contribution in that respect, Mr Hales. I take nothing away from that. Are you are you still concerned about, I guess, this idea that Australians might be targeted on the basis of their on the basis of their religious faith for participating in our democracy?

Bruce Hales
1:07:28
Well, I don't know what's going to go from here out, but I think I think this committee hearing should probably help to tone down the conversation and make it clear that there has been a fair bit of misinformation bandied around about my particular our particular church and its involvement in the election but as I've said numerous times I know At all, nor did I give directions or instructions as to some in this 2025 election

Ben Small MP
1:08:26
as to some of in an Anglican church, like, is that any different?

Unidentified speaker
1:08:45
I think it is question, Mr Small.

Ben Small MP
1:08:50
Thank you very much, Chair. Finally, Mr. Hales, I guess, just to be absolutely clear, area. you agree that Australians of all political, sorry, all religious faiths should be able to pay in our democracy or choose not to, but that is a matter for them and nothing to do with their faith.

Bruce Hales
1:09:12
I think that's fair enough. I mean. To be fair, someone's faith in how highly they regard it and how deeply they are involved would be influential in how they choose to participate in any election, but I do think that the faith and participation is unrelated.

Ben Small MP
1:09:39
Thank and I think we've hit time with this witness.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
1:09:41
us. Senator Hodgins -May. it.

Senator Steph Hodgins-May
1:09:43
Thank you. Mr. Hales, this week Turning Point USA which is a fairly prominent political organisation that targets young people to adopt a conservative ideology issued a support of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church ahead of this hearing. Had you seen this statement before it was published?

Bruce Hales
1:10:01
Certainly not and I'm not sure that I've actually seen the statement.

Senator Steph Hodgins-May
1:10:04
Have you heard whether any members of your church's leadership have ever met with spoken to Turning Point or Turning Point faith including you know potentially Charlie Kirk before death or the current chief executive, Erica Kirk?

Bruce Hales
1:10:18
No, not that I know of I certainly remember the River's assassination of Charlie Kirk, I don't believe I'm comfortable

Senator Steph Hodgins-May
1:10:33
to table that statement to if so you are I understand

Bruce Hales
1:10:45
there have been Some members of the New York area have met Mr. Trump briefly. I have never met him, nor have I ever directed anybody to attempt to secure an appointment or meeting with him.

Senator Steph Hodgins-May
1:11:04
On notice, could you please try to get more information about who it was in that group in New York that met with. Sorry, met with the Trump administration. And similarly, I know now to take on notice, please, which senior members of your church in campaigning with Donald Trump's MAGA movement in the US it was reported in the age three church okay do you aware of that if the that training that occurred no.

Unidentified speaker
1:11:30
No I'm not.

Senator Steph Hodgins-May
1:11:31
Okay well if on notice you can make some inquiries to find that information for our committee that clear the table that was made from Turning Point called for the US Department of State essentially to intervene in these proceedings today do support the idea that a foreign government should intervene in an Australian parliamentary inquiry?

Ben Small MP
1:11:54
Point of order Chair. How can the witness possibly answer that question? He's here to account for himself and himself only.

Unidentified speaker
1:12:02
That's a question of him and He said he hasn't seen the I can read the final sentence. we're over time. I'm not over time, hasn't seen the statement.

Unidentified speaker
1:12:13
Excuse you. Excuse

Unidentified speaker
1:12:15
You're not the chair, so please be quiet.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
1:12:18
The statement is about this inquiry. I think it's a valid question. And if Mr— Well,

Unidentified speaker
1:12:26
Chair, on a point of order, how about the statement be made to members of the committee so we can understand what it is?

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
1:12:34
was just about to say, Senator Colbeck, if Mr. Hales can't answer it now, he is welcome to take it on notice given it has just been tabled and he hasn't read it. So you just interrupted me there. So the question was, do you think it's appropriate for a foreign government to interfere in an Australian parliamentary inquiry? It's a question about this inquiry and it's asking Mr Hale's opinion. I've sat here for long enough to have questions asking about witnesses' opinions and if Mr Hales wants to understand the statement and understand the context, he can take the question on notice. Or answer it. He may wish to answer it.

Unidentified speaker
1:13:20
Is there a question for me to answer?

Unidentified speaker
1:13:23
If you would like to.

Bruce Hales
1:13:24
I would have said it was rare for a foreign government to involve themselves in another country's inquiry such as this, but I had nothing to do if indeed that has occurred. I had no knowledge or participation in it.

Senator Steph Hodgins-May
1:13:47
Thank you and and I'll note if you can look at that statement say whether you think it's appropriate or not? Thank you. So I'm interested to know a bit more about how the church raises money. The Exclusive Brethren is registered as a charity, not a deductible gift recipient, which is correct, right? Correct?

Bruce Hales
1:14:10
I don't know that I understand your question, sorry.

Senator Steph Hodgins-May
1:14:13
So the Exclusive Brethren are a registered charity. They're not a deductible gift recipient. Is that correct?

Bruce Hales
1:14:20
Well, the Exclusive Brethren as such is not a registered charity. The the various trustees to which it owns property are registered as charitableable. I'm afraid I think I'll have to take that one on notice.

Senator Steph Hodgins-May
1:14:40
Under the Government's proposed tax laws, discretionary trusts will be exempt from the proposed 30 minimum tax when making donations to registered charities, including organisations that aren't DGRs. Are you putting in place any strategies to potentially attract from this newly tax-advantaged No,

Bruce Hales
1:14:59
I'm certainly not aware of anything nor have I given any regard to of it. I have given substantially myself trust that I am fully documented and registered and of. My accounts have been lodged with the Australian Government but apart from that I can't say anything further.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
1:15:25
Stop you there. You can put some questions on notice within seven days. Mr Newman.

Shayne Neumann MP
1:15:33
Thank you Mr Hales. In your submission on the 5th of October this year you say you provideG spiritual guidance to people. It's not my role to direct what members do politically. This morning you said in your evidence in relation that you believe members of the get what you get, you get from the Lord. And I'm interested particularly your sermon where you said you're happy again, smiling again.

Indeed, chilli, that's a phrase phrase I heard many, many, many times during the election campaign by people wearing LNP shirts. And indeed, I saw that sort of phraseology used on billboards like let's make Australia happy, put labour last and a billboard that outside of, electronic billboard of the race view pre-pole on the 29th of April 25 in relation to the election. So I'm just interested in your sermon because I've read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and had many sermons in my back over many many years. I've never heard a preacher or pastor or priest ever talk about making Australia happy again. What did you really mean by that?

Bruce Hales
1:16:57
Well obviously you're not to find the reference to Australia in the Bible, are you?

Shayne Neumann MP
1:17:02
No, but no, not a nation. There's Israel and a lot of nations in the Bible mentioned.

Bruce Hales
1:17:07
And if we just refer to Acts 26, which is the third gospel, gospel sermon that we have recorded of Paul the Apostle, he he uses that word happy. He was permitted to speak publicly, stretching out his hand in defence. He says, I count myself likely to find the reference to Australia in the Bible, eh? Happy is a scriptural word used by by the Apostle Paul in public. So with all due respect, I don't know that there's a lot to defend, how to defend about it, Mr Newman.

Shayne Neumann MP
1:17:52
Well, St Paul also says in Galatians chapter 5 verse 22 to 26, he talks about, you know, etc. But I've never heard of this idea that a nation should be happy. really mean by that, which was then picked up by people wearing LNP shirts and put on billboards in terms of activity and punting. Did you have any idea that that might happen?

Bruce Hales
1:18:17
No I did not. So what was your quote from Galatians?

Shayne Neumann MP
1:18:23
Galatians 5 verse 22 to 26 about the fruit of the spirit, joy.

Bruce Hales
1:18:27
Yeah that's very good. Love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness, goodness, fidelity, meekness, self-control. Well, I just cannot at all recollect any input I had at all into what you claim to be the billboards and other advertising material during the election campaign. Whether someone showed me something, I believe there was a photograph of the of a truck. But I can't remember that expression being being published.

Shayne Neumann MP
1:19:09
So you didn't have any discussions with any of your sons in relation to the activities that they then called to action for people in the Plymouth Brethren Church to man the and, know, the 1%, etc. It seems like a real gee -up, a call to arms. Discussions with any of your sons in relation to any of those matters whatsoever.

Bruce Hales
1:19:33
Now, the first... indication I had that my oldest son was out on the polling booths was a photograph in the paper and I was a bit surprised

Shayne Neumann MP
1:19:49
What did you do when you saw that photograph? Did you say, well look, what are you guys doing? You've completely misinterpreted what I had to say.

Bruce Hales
1:19:57
I said, what are you doing? What are you doing?

Shayne Neumann MP
1:20:01
What did you say to that when you said, what are you doing?

Bruce Hales
1:20:03
I can't remember. Listen, we've had no detailed What did you say to boys. I'm sorry, we're, and really discuss discuss politics, It's not a big theme, Mr Newman. I know you think it is, and I know, but I think most of your precious committee has got it wrong, and you're obviously hoping to uncover something that needs to be uncovered that's been hidden. But it's not the case.

Unidentified speaker
1:20:33
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
So just, you know, you used to call us our precious committee. That's a pretty pejorative sort of way to put it.

Unidentified speaker
1:20:46
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
actually want to have a recovering Senator Mackenzie, please.

Andrew Gee MP
1:20:54
because these are the rules that have been regular, they're burning up valuable committee time, and if Senator McKenzie cannot abide by the rules of this committee, she should leave.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
1:21:03
Senator McKenzie. Again, there are rules for the...

Senator Bridget McKenzie
1:21:09
I'm sorry, Chair.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
1:21:11
Are you?

Senator Bridget McKenzie
1:21:12
Point of order, point of order. I'll ask the right, the right way then. Senator Neumann has been using language that is, I believe, disrespectful of the witness, who has come here at a request of the committee calling it pejorative, and I would ask you if you could

Shayne Neumann MP
1:22:05
So, Mr. Hales. For example, in my seat, there are, according to the ABS data, 200 members you had nothing to do whatsoever with that activity.

Bruce Hales
1:22:44
Absolutely. I speak for myself and collectively there was nothing ever said in any congregation to organise or promote or advance such activity.

Shayne Neumann MP
1:22:59
So you say in your submission to us that you wanted people to be fervent in prayer, you wanted Australia happy again, smiling again. In terms of the activity, individually I speak for myself and collectively there those sermons, do you not? It's not just about prayer, and it's not just about faith, because faith without works is nothing, is it not? That's what James says in the book of James, isn't He says it's dead actually, Dead, exactly. Faith without works is dead. you expect action, do you not, as a result of your sermons.

Bruce Hales
1:23:37
Not necessarily,, no.

Shayne Neumann MP
1:23:40
You don't expect to pray more, to do more, to act on behalf of your sermons? You don't expect them to do it at all? I wouldn't know a pastor or a priest that wouldn't expect their congregants to act on this sentence.

Ben Small MP
1:23:51
Mr Chair, again,. We're at eight minutes into a Labor questioning block and so far off the standing orders is not funny.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
1:23:59
There were two non-government members back to back Mr Small and everyone, including Mr Hales's, has gone over there a lot of times. So will Mr Newman, if you've got two questions, and then I'll go to Ms Payne and Mr Gee and then we will close.

Shayne Neumann MP
1:24:17
So, Mr Harris, you would expect members of your congregations who are listening to your sermons to act on them, would you not?

Bruce Hales
1:24:27
Well, I would expect so, Mr Newman, but sorry, our gospel preachings, for instance, our sermons, go out as an appeal. That is, it's the glad tight ends we're preaching.

Shayne Neumann MP
1:24:45
And your sons have interpreted your appeal to an action to pull political action. And what your sermons were said by people in the LNP shirts repeatedly. So your call to action, to use your expression, was acted on by your congregation. Isn't that correct?

Bruce Hales
1:25:10
I don't think that I was putting forward a plea for action. I don't believe it.

Shayne Neumann MP
1:25:17
You think it would be restricted to fervency and prayer, do you? Yes, I do. And yet, you can't find a verse anywhere that calls people to action for national or corporate action. It's all about individuals. We've talked about the individual happiness and you've quoted verses of the Bible. I've quoted verses of the Bible about individual happiness. You have called your congregation to political action. Isn't that the case?

Bruce Hales
1:25:46
No, it is not the case.

Shayne Neumann MP
1:25:48
So your sons were completely incorrect in their interpretation of your words?

Bruce Hales
1:25:54
I'm not going to answer for my sons because we've had very, very limited conversations as to the activities, and in fact, if we had any conversations in regard to the activities in the 2025 election. So I'm not going to apply

Shayne Neumann MP
1:26:08
my Question, Chair. My final question to Mr. Hales. Is the Liberal Party, in their review of the election, Thank you. calls the Plymouth Brethren a support group. Have you done anything in respect of that review? Have you contacted the Liberal Party and said, oh, you've got it wrong. We were not a support group for you at all. The Liberal Party is completely erroneous in their review of the election. Have you done anything about that? But why should I? Well, on your evidence today, they got it wrong.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
1:26:42
Mr Newman, we will stop it there. Thank you very much. I will go to Ms Payne and Mr Gee. Thank you for your indulgence, everybody, including the witness. There have been a few interruptions and a few people go over time and we will continue and try and wrap this up. Ms Payne.

Alicia Payne MP
1:26:58
Thank you, Mr Hales, for appearing before the committee this morning. Senior members of your church, including your son, were involved in a coordinated campaign of aggressive behaviour. Does that Payne concern you?

Bruce Hales
1:27:14
I don't know. I didn't know that they were involved. You are saying my sons, I have got four of them. I do not know what aggressive behaviour you are referring to.

Alicia Payne MP
1:27:24
It has been well documented in the media and your son's involvement and other senior members of your church. That has been well documented in the media. Are you not aware of that?

Bruce Hales
1:27:36
No, I am not and I don't support aggressive behaviour.

Alicia Payne MP
1:27:41
When were you made aware of it.

Bruce Hales
1:27:45
You are asking me about something that I am not even sure that I know what you are talking, what was your name again?

Alicia Payne MP
1:27:52
I am I don't

Bruce Hales
1:27:55
No, I don't know what you are referring to. Sorry.

Alicia Payne MP
1:28:00
One particular article is from the Sydney Morning Herald on the 14th of September by Michael Bachelard and Sharon Grosh and it details, for example, that your son was involved in at least one chat group that was organising aggressive coordinated behaviour. We've had other senior members of the church say that they were involved.

Bruce Hales
1:28:26
With all due respect, I don't know anything about it. I'm not a member of any chat groups nor do I participate in chat groups. And I'm sorry you're asking the wrong person.

Alicia Payne MP
1:28:39
I didn't say that you were. I said that it's been been reported that your son was and other senior members of your church have said that they were. Lester Sharples has said that he was one of the people that organised this. Do you think that if senior members of your church reported as being involved in a coordinated campaign campaign of aggressive behaviour around an election campaign that you should speak to them about that?

Bruce Hales
1:29:23
I know but you're asking a question that's hypothetical and somewhat nebulous.

Alicia Payne MP
1:29:28
Well I think that's just a matter for your opinion as a leader of the church if members, senior members of your church are being publicly reported to be coordinating aggressive behaviour around an election campaign,

Unidentified speaker
1:29:46
Well I would speak about it if I knew about it,

Alicia Payne MP
1:29:58
Well, it's been well bound reported and it's obviously in many submissions to this inquiry that... Point of order, Chair. ...have been publicly...

Ben Small MP
1:30:08
is that something you Michael Bachelard's so-called journalism are and here we go again and again and again.

Alicia Payne MP
1:30:17
It's not views on journalism Mr Small, it's views on behaviour of members of his church

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
1:30:32
that has of the reporting on the 14th of September?

Unidentified speaker
1:30:42
that what that?

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
1:30:45
So the headline is Tail Film Heckle, inside the brethren's secret influence plot with the far right.

Unidentified speaker
1:30:52
No.

Unidentified speaker
1:30:53
You haven't read it?

Unidentified speaker
1:30:55
No, I have not.

Alicia Payne MP
1:30:58
Okay. Um, are you, would you be disappointed that members of your church have been reportedly involved in aggressive behaviour, intimidation, stunts to embarrass...

Unidentified speaker
1:31:13
Yes, if it's true, it certainly would be considered.

Unidentified speaker
1:31:15
Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. Mr G?

Andrew Gee MP
1:31:17
Yes, thank you Mr Hay Hayles. Mr Hales, I just wanted to check, have you been giving truthful evidence?

Ben Small MP
1:31:27
Hold up, hold up, hold up, hold up, Chair. This is beyond a disgraceful way to start the inquisition of a witness before a parliamentary committee. That is so far beyond the pale.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
1:31:41
What's wrong with Mr G? Mr G Mr G, I would remind you that the statement I gave at the opening which Mr Hales is bound by, the giving of false evidence is a serious matter and may be a contempt of parliament. So, it is taken Mr Hales is answering truthfully and if there's evidence otherwise then he will be held to account for that. So I'd ask if you could continue with your questioning Mr G and not that G and not that first one is just taken unless proven otherwise.

Andrew Gee MP
1:32:16
The reason that I wanted to ask you that is because there is an article in Sydney Morning Herald, which refers to that Mr. The article says that you a Sunday church service two days after Mr. Grimshaw gave evidence to this inquiry.

And the words attributed to you in the article is these, it's not that we despise men in the world, capable men, but they haven't got the full story. They want you at any time to help them to fill the story out. We don't do it.. We didn't do it. We said, no, no, we're going to keep it, keep it to ourselves. a world, we've got our secrets. And then the article says, you go on to say, why should we, why should we tell the world everything we know? Why should you tell the world all about it? Keep it to yourself. Did you say those words, Mr. Hales?

Bruce Hales
1:33:17
Quite likely, but you see, the word mystery applies to the gland tidings and indeed it applies if anyone knows their bible it applies to the church it's a. It's a mystery and that is what I would have meant by that that why do we have to go out and explain every syllable that we state in the in the church conference.

Andrew Gee MP
1:33:47
Because reading that article Mr Hales and given your evidence today which was that you believe that church members would say and what I get, I get from God. the Do you think that those words could be interpreted as an exhortation not to give evidence to this committee or anyone else about what went on during the 2025 Fed campaign in terms of brethren involvement?

Bruce Hales
1:34:15
No, not at all, I don't see any link with the two matters that you're referring

Andrew Gee MP
1:34:24
given evidence today, Mr. Hales, that... You expressed sympathy for anyone who may have felt intimidated by what went on in the 2025 election campaign. And I have to say that I personally was followed from booth to booth by members of the Plymouth Brethren. I had them crowd around me while standing on polling booths.

There was an incident where where I had one filming me, and in fact, I had And also an incident where two young booth members reported to me that they felt so intimidated that they couldn't actually stand on the booth in question. when I went to out, there were multiple members of the Plymouth Bre Brethren on that booth. So I'm just wondering, given the fact that your evidence evidence is is that you do not support anyone being intimidated and that you don't agree with the harassment or intimidation of anyone anyone and you've expressed what you have said is genuine sympathy, do you think you should apologise to anyone who felt intimidated by the actions of members of your church during the 2025 federal election campaign?

Bruce Hales
1:35:49
Well I think that anyone that's guilty of it individually should I'm prepared to apologise, yes.

Andrew Gee MP
1:35:56
But you've expressed sympathy about it in your evidence today as head of the church. As head of the church, do you think you should apologise? Do you think that would be the decent and Christian thing to do?

Bruce Hales
1:36:06
I haven't expressed sympathy or... intimidation or anything that is civil towards persons representing various political parties or members of the public. I'm sorry. I have no part in that whatsoever. Do not support it and, quite frankly, are against it.

Andrew Gee MP
1:36:32
But you've expressed your genuine sympathy. They were your words in your written statement that you gave. So don't you think you owe, as head of the church, anyone who felt So just let me finish please Mr Hales, don't you think you owe those people who felt intimidated an apology?

Unidentified speaker
1:36:47
Not necessarily.

Unidentified speaker
1:36:51
Alright, Mr Hales, would you agree with me Mr Hales that, andaghd you

Bruce Hales
1:37:14
don't know what to say exactly to that question because... Thank you believe The participation of individual members of the church was their own responsibility and not what I would call church, church action.

Andrew Gee MP
1:37:34
Well, you've said that multiple times, Mr. Hales, and you've also said that the church and its members did not organise, promote or advance political campaigning. But given the evidence that you know exists in this committee and the mountain of media articles about this, what steps have you personally taken to ascertain the level of involvement of members of your church and members of your family in the 2025 federal election Campaign?

Bruce Hales
1:38:07
Very little because I read what comes to hand in the media articles but apart from what You might be thinking, because you've obviously been influenced by what I would call unsatisfactory or incompetent sources, I have not promoted antagonistic action in the public arena.

Andrew Gee MP
1:38:42
Given that entities enjoying charitable taxation status are not to be engaged in partisan political campaigning, given that what's at stake, I mean, it's been reported that 10 charities have assets worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Don What do you think is at stake? You personally should have investigated these allegations about the involvement of your church in the 2025 federal election Campaign.

Bruce Hales
1:39:18
Not necessarily, Mr G. No.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
1:39:22
Thanks, Mr G. Senator McKenzie with the final questions.

Senator Bridget McKenzie
1:39:28
Thank you. I don't want to detain the committee. I do apologise, Mr Hales, on behalf of the parliament, if you have felt persecuted through this hearing. I think there there's a lot of Australians who aren't happy under the current government and you wouldn't have been the only public figure actually making public comments about how people people interpret sermons, whether they're from an Anglican pulpit, a mosque, Baptist lectern, is up to the individual and a decision between them and their faith. um, my, My question is, do you believe in a liberal democracy that citizens, irrespective of their faith, should be able to freely participate in federal elections?

Bruce Hales
1:40:19
Yes, as long as it's within the law.

Senator Bridget McKenzie
1:40:22
Do you think there's any difference? Have you seen CFMEU harassment or intimidation on booths that you've had to vote in or walked past?

Bruce Hales
1:40:35
I've heard of it, but I'm…

Senator Bridget McKenzie
1:40:38
There's lots of articles and maybe we should get the head of the CFMEU before the committee chair to actually look at the harassment that goes on at polling booths each and every election in each and every electorate across the country but in the interest of time I know we've got another

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
1:41:03
Thank you, Senator McKenzie, and I think, as long as it is within the law, Iodya why this committee look and bullying that goes the involvement of members of your church .ody thank you very much, Mr Hay members have a seven days to put questions on notice to the secretariat through you.

So you'll be sent a copy of the transcript of your evidence to assist you with answering questions taken on notice today. I think you took a few on notice. and you'll have an opportunity to request corrections to transcription errors. Once you have received the transcript, you're asked to provide responses to any questions on notice within two weeks.

Please forward these and any additional information that has been requested to the secretariat. Please note that the responses to questions on notice will be published on the committee's website as submissions to the inquiry. inquiry. It now being 102, are we just happy to continue on, members? I know we had a break scheduled, but we will continue on. We will now move to. witness.

Unidentified speaker
1:42:20
Alright, I thank you.

Senator Bridget McKenzie
1:42:36
My laptop is running low. I know the Labor members will be cheering, so I'm probably not going to make it for much longer so if I drop out I'm not being rude, I'm just out of battery.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
1:42:48
That's a a shame Senator McKenzie.

Unidentified speaker
1:42:50
I know. I hear you.

Unidentified speaker
1:42:54
I might suspend hearings until the next witness comes online. We're broadcasting, great. I now welcome Mr Gareth Hales to give evidence today. For the Hansard Record, would you please state your full name and the capacity in which you appear before the committee?

Gareth Hales
1:44:46
My name is Gareth James Hales. I'm just here as an individual citizen.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
1:44:51
Thank you Mr Hales. Although the committee does not require you to give evidence under oath, I advise you that this hearing is a legal proceeding of the parliament and therefore has the same standing as the proceedings of the respective houses. The giving of false or misleading evidence is a serious matter and may be regarded as a contempt of parliament. The evidence given today will be recorded by Hansard and attracts parliamentary privilege. I now invite you to make a brief opening statement of a few minutes before we proceed to discussion. If you've got one. Do you have an opening statement Mr. Hales? Yes I do. Off you go.

Gareth Hales
1:45:25
I've chaired members of the committee. I've accepted your invitation and am hearing voluntarily today. I was born and raised in Australia. I run businesses here, I've raised my own family here. I'm a father, a grandfather and an a member of my church, my broader community. Like millions of Australians I care deeply about this country and its future. As such I have my own views about how, it should be governed and I'm thankful to live in a, part of the world that affords it's citizens the democratic right to participate in elections.

In 2025 I was deeply concerned about the direction the country was heading, particularly the, pressures on business and the people they employ. For the record I remain concerned about those very things, the way this government treats businesses, particularly small to medium businesses, because they did not make those challenges disappear. What a did as an individual individual was support a change of government and volunteer in the 2025 campaign. I have read this committee's terms of reference.

I note that among the matters you are examining any incidents of aggressive conduct, deliberate obstruction and intimidating behaviour towards voters, political volunteers, and electoral officials during the 2025 federal election. At the outset, I want to be very clear that I do not condone own unlawful conduct of any kind by any person for any purpose. I did not witness any of this conduct during the campaign and had no involvement in or knowledge of organising any such conduct by others.

Like many Australians, my faith as a Christian is important to me. I am a member of the Plymouth, Brethren Christian Church, although I hold no role in the church. Bruce Hales is my father. I have nothing to conceal or apologise for in any of that. That brings me to the journalist Michael Bachelard, whose reporting is featured in the allegations surrounding his inquiry and apparently accepted by the committee chair-chair as true, despite denials issued prior to publication.

Committee members would know and understand from their own... campaigns, that their volunteers have come from all walks of life. Some have connections that overlap and others do not. I volunteer the chairs electorate have been along, alongside That brings me to the journalist Michael Bachelart whose political preference. This committee should understand. The campaigning alongside someone else-else not mean adopting every appeal I have ever expressed. The committee chair is now taking a dangerous step using a group of volunteers' religious identity to associate them publicly with ideologies apparently held by others.

This committee should consider whether that risks discouraging participation in future democratic elections. What message does it send to campaign volunteers and to people of faith across this country if their beliefs can be used to imply wrongdoing by association. Michael Bachelard has waged a decades-long campaign of misinformation against the Brethren Church and has settled legal proceedings brought against him about his reporting. That context and history deserves scrutiny. Who, or at least I expect this committee, to bring an. independent mind to Michael Bachelard's report in a similar way that brings an open mind to my comments?

As I have if their I will answer questions honestly to the extent of what I know, but I also will make this point plainly. being a Christian, being a business owner and wanting a different government should not require an explanation or an apology. Thank you.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
1:49:29
Thank you Mr Hales. I'll go to the Deputy Chair.

Senator Richard Colbeck (Deputy Chair)
1:49:37
Thanks, Chair. Thanks, Mr Hales. Thanks for your opening statement. Do you believe that because you're a member of the Plymouth Brethren, assist participating in the Australian No,

Gareth Hales
1:49:54
I don't. I don't think I've got a perfect democratic right to participate or volunteer.

Senator Richard Colbeck (Deputy Chair)
1:50:03
Do you think that the process that this committee's undertaking is designed to discourage members of your church from, participating in the electoral system?

Gareth Hales
1:50:15
Yes, I do think that, and I think volunteering, there's nothing wrong with that. I think volunteering really strengthens social connections, brings people together across different backgrounds, generations and circumstances. Furthermore, it inspires people young and old to participate and can encourage colleagues, friends and family to demonstrate a spirit of friendship.

Senator Richard Colbeck (Deputy Chair)
1:50:42
Does your church in any way encourage or discourage participation within the electoral system and do you see that as being any different other Christian or any other faith for that matter, whether that be Muslim, Roman Catholic, Church of England, should that be a determining factor in your ability to participate?

Gareth Hales
1:51:13
No, I think to your question, Senator. it The P PBCC as such does not encourage us to participate, just like as you said, Muslims or Anglicans or Catholics or Jews, If they participate in an election, it's not the Church telling them to do that. They're doing that like we are, on our own individual right.

Senator Richard Colbeck (Deputy Chair)
1:51:37
you believe that you have the capacity to make up your own mind freely as to who might or might not support politically. and then act on that as a part of your participation in

Gareth Hales
1:51:58
long as we don't do anything So, you believe that you have. I.

Senator Richard Colbeck (Deputy Chair)
1:52:15
Okay observe any examples of aggression towards members of your community during your participation in the campaign?

Gareth Hales
1:52:32
I can only speak to what I know and what I saw and what I did, but I didn't actually see any harassment or intimidation. I did hear reports of it, but I But I didn't witness it myself.

Senator Richard Colbeck (Deputy Chair)
1:52:46
Okay, so did you observe during your participation on polling booths in Benelong? to any acts of aggressive behaviour?

Gareth Hales
1:52:59
No, I myself didn't. But I would say if I saw poor behaviour or bad behaviour, I would call it out, put it right.

Senator Richard Colbeck (Deputy Chair)
1:53:17
So, your experience a participant, as one that observed So...

Gareth Hales
1:53:52
a Chatswood and Opelands. Then I did three booth visits,, One was at Eastwood Baptist Church, I had a t-shirt on, I was handing out free pole leaflets, having just friendly chats to the locals there. I then went on to Top Right in Bradfield for half an hour. I can see anything real aggressive, to be honest

Senator Richard Colbeck (Deputy Chair)
1:54:22
So the characterisation the members of your church in the election campaign being aggressive and overbearing, How would you describe those?

Gareth Hales
1:54:43
well I don't like aggression, I don like harassment. I disagree with Paul behaviour. As I said earlier, if it was brought to my notice. I the follow that individual up and told them to write a letter apology or put it right.

Unidentified speaker
1:55:01
Okay, thanks Chair.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
1:55:03
Thank you Deputy Chair, Ms Campbell.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
1:55:05
Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Mr Hales, for appearing before the committee today. Well, I don't like likened Bruce Howes to the Pope of the Catholic Church on two occasions and Bruce Howes agreed likening So Mr Bruce Howes is both the Pope equivalent of the Brethren and the Father, that's correct?

Gareth Hales
1:55:32
He wasn't exactly the Pope but he's the leader of our church globally.

Ben Small MP
1:55:38
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
And Mr Howes, sorry, sorry. That's some verbaling and a complete misinterpretation of the evidence

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
1:55:46
Yes, Mr Small. There was an answer. Let's keep on going.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
1:55:50
going on. Sorry, Mr Small, I was relying on what you've said. My apologies. Mr Hales, can you tell us what global media stream or GSM is?

Gareth Hales
1:56:04
not sure what you're referring to there, unless it's when we have meetings on Zoom and it's global meetings, maybe it applies to that.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
1:56:14
Sorry, so a global media stream or GSM, sorry, GMS.

Gareth Hales
1:56:23
Well during during COVID we is. Mr Hales, it was probably that streaming. Mostly we go physically to our meetings, but I know sometimes when we have, like, we had some global meetings in Westfield and New York about a month ago, and that was globally streamed, so other people could watch it and interact if required.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
1:56:44
Yes, and your father gave evidence previously indicating that the services were streamed in a global way. So, yes. On the 20th of April, your and it was published on GMS. Do you recall that sermon?

Gareth Hales
1:57:04
No, not that particular one. Which one are you referring to?

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
1:57:09
I'm happy to refresh your memory. In it Bruce Hales said Australia needs to be happy again, smiling again and he talked about being fervent in their prayers and in his evidence he said that in that context he was referring to dissatisfaction with government.

Gareth Hales
1:57:33
I think I think the happy thing was make Australia happy again. Might have been make Australia smile again. I know he likes a song that's called when you're smiling the whole world smiles with you. I've actually played it on the piano.

Unidentified speaker
1:57:47
Yeah, boring at times. No for clarity this week, sorry Mr Hales.

Gareth Hales
1:57:55
I was just going to say, but I just can't see what's wrong with actually saying make Australia smile again or make Australia happy again. I think that's a good...

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
1:58:05
My apologies, Mr. House, I wasn't saying that at all. I was, just for clarity though, in terms of the song that you've just quoted, it didn't say those words. it said, needs to be happy again, smiling again. So in terms of that, you now recall that GMS recording of your father's sermon. How did you interpret that message?

Gareth Hales
1:58:30
Exactly as you said it. Just Australia needs to be happy again.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
1:58:35
Needs to Yep, And did you appear in a video with your brothers or write any messages or any written words at all in any format or communication with an interpretation of that message?

Unidentified speaker
1:58:56
No, I didn't. I got on some WhatsApp, I got on on some calls, some video don't know that I repeated, I don't think I repeated that message

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
1:59:01
calls, and I yeah okay I'm just going to read an excerpt and this is in quotes how awesome was it was it recording on GMS we should all be freshly charged and messages or well and truly into the game and it's game on now. As we were reminded we need to focus on what we can control. Forget the media, pray and take action instead. Make sure our booths are manned and volunteers fired up each day to dominate the play. It's all in the extra one percent. We don't want wanted any resource wasted.

Keep up the ground game with an undecided bubble as large was what our own polling is showing we must keep up pressing the flesh shaking hands and talking to voters and the streets the Lord can do what we can't stay focused and make sure we don't leave any gas in the tank appreciate everyone's tireless commitment so far it's inspirational thank you and keep it up and two emojis of punching boxing gloves did

Gareth Hales
2:00:07
Did you say that? That's a lot of words to take in.

Unidentified speaker
2:00:09
Did you say some of that? Sorry, that's, that's, think that

Gareth Hales
2:00:15
was my words, but I would have listened to people speak about their experiences. I might have offered a little bit of encouragement, but in no way did I direct them, or control

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
2:00:26
them, or manage them. So you didn't say those words? Sorry, Mr Howser, are you saying you didn't say those words?

Gareth Hales
2:00:31
I don't believe I said those words.

Unidentified speaker
2:00:32
Did you write those words?

Gareth Hales
2:00:34
I'd have to check the source of your document. I can take that on notice if you

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
2:00:41
want. That would be wonderful. Essentially what that does is it ties that GMS recording of the sermon to the campaign that was being run on the ground. Did you interpret the sermon from your father on the 20th of April in 2025. Did you link that to the campaigning that you did on the ground that you've talked about?

Gareth Hales
2:01:13
No, no, I didn't link that at all.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
2:01:15
Okay. So, Mr Hales said that our sermons go out as an appeal and made it clear that those sermons were very rarely misinterpreted and, in terms of the messages provided, he said it's clear. So I did want to ask I did want to ask if the sermon was given on the 20th and And then quite close to that, that message was put out, which you cannot confirm that you did not say read or write. If, those two things happened in simity to each other, and the message has a direct link to the sermon, how would that not be an appeal to to go out and campaign?

Gareth Hales
2:02:10
No, the Bible readings you're talking about in the sermons. we read about Old Testament, New Testament. We talk about Abraham, Moses, David. We talk about Paul. We talk about the Gospels, John and Mark and Matthew. We don't talk about politics. We don't actually encourage people to get out there and campaign. That is not the church's not Mr.

Unidentified speaker
2:02:35
So Mr Hales It's not me.

Unidentified speaker
2:02:36
Hales' job to do that. that.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
2:02:38
Yeah, so Mr. Bruce Hales talked about the we read about And he said that those were very rarely misinterpreted. If once you confirm whether or not this link between the GMS recording and very much a call to action more broadly to the membership did happen in that way, did you disobey Mr Hales or did you misinterpret his message? Or in fact, did you interpret the message in that way?

Gareth Hales
2:03:12
Every sermon has an appeal. The appeal is generally be attracted to Christ, come usable .com sufficiently usable retrieve to get out in a democratic right, do what they want to do, but again, I don't think that is my words.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
2:03:54
okay, and did you receive I understand that you're saying that you don't believe those words, but you can't confirm that and you haven't heard that for the committee, unless you would like to confirm that those aren't your words?

Gareth Hales
2:04:10
I have to look at the source documents here to actually verify that they are my words. Okay.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
2:04:16
Um, did you receive any feedback about either that message or any other message that was similar in nature to it?

Gareth Hales
2:04:26
No, I didn't receive any feedback, no.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
2:04:29
And for clarity, in terms of Bruce Hales's sermons more broadly, you never consider taking any action out of them?

Gareth Hales
2:04:41
No, definitely, definitely not from a political point of view.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
2:04:43
No, no, no, for clarity, for clarity, sorry, Mr. Hales, I should have been clearer. In terms of sermons that you listen to from your father, the most senior member globally in the church, do you, once a sermon is given, do you think that you should take any action or do anything as a result of it?

Gareth Hales
2:05:07
from a spiritual point of view or a christian point of

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
2:05:09
view from any point of action

Gareth Hales
2:05:12
to believe it in the will of god or the word of god or to follow christ or follow the land where so ever it goes i mean that's I am just using scriptures now, but we have subjects like the Good and Acceptable Perfect Will of God. That would make me want to be governed by the Will of God.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
2:05:32
um, so, uh, I guess my question is, when you listen to those studies that you talk about, do you think that you should do anything after them, or do you think that they should as they are and members should therefore not do anything as a result of that sermon or that preaching?

Gareth Hales
2:05:57
I think they should just lie as they are.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
2:05:59
Okay, so you think that sermons should have no consequence?

Gareth Hales
2:06:07
Same, sermons shouldn't have a consequence. I'm saying the sermon consequence should be that we're more committed to our faith, and we become more spiritual, and we do the right thing.

Unidentified speaker
2:06:17
Do the right thing.

Gareth Hales
2:06:18
There's no there's no connection with that just lie as you're talking about the 2025 political campaign.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
2:06:25
For clarity you will come back to us as you've kindly agreed in terms of that message and clarifying whether that was you or not. Last question is good. Thank you. Mr Hales, earlier you said as long as we don't do illegal or unlawful. In terms of that, do you believe that the Plymouth Brethren should be precluded be precluded from the electoral laws of this country?

Gareth Hales
2:06:59
Just unpack that a little bit more, what do you mean?

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
2:07:02
Do you believe that the Plymouth Brethren, as with any other organisation at all, should be precluded from following the electoral laws of this country?

Gareth Hales
2:07:14
We absolutely believe in the electoral laws and, just so you know, we've got full respect Gavin is of Guy, we refer to it as the head of gold, which is in scripture. It's a territory of work, and I believe government should represent trust and cooperation and build constructive relationships between businesses, communities, and government representatives.

Julie-Ann Campbell MP
2:07:37
Thank you very much, Mr Hales. I appreciate your time.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:07:40
Thank you, Ms Campbell. Ms Ryan, please.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:07:43
Well, thank you, Mr House, thanks for coming today. Your father told us that the church looked to him for guidance on doctrine. Do you believe your father direct messenger from God?

Gareth Hales
2:07:59
I believe he represents the spirit of Christ and the spirit of Christianity, and we talk about Christ as a great shepherd, the great shepherd, the chief shepherd, and I would say him and his father, some of these other men that have led the recovery as we talk about it have led the Yes.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:08:21
And is it your expectation that you or one of your brothers will succeed your father as head of the church?

Gareth Hales
2:08:29
If you have to ask my brothers, I don't think that's my job. Certainly not me. thank you.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:08:36
I'm interested in your involvement in the campaign. I don't think any member of this of this committee thinks that people of faith don't have the right to be part of democracy in Australia, but the concern clearly is the fact that the involvement of the church and what appeared to be a mass mobilisation of PBCC members was more consistent with an institutional operation than one that was sort of individual. Just to that, do you own a business called Sante Global?

Unidentified speaker
2:09:09
Yes, sir.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:09:11
And did Sante Global book a room for a meeting at the Ride Parramatta Golf Club in Sydney on the 1st of April 2025?

Unidentified speaker
2:09:20
Yes, we did.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:09:22
Are you able to tell me who attended that meeting and what was discussed at it?

Gareth Hales
2:09:29
Well, it would have been Santé businesses and Santé suppliers, Santé contractors.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:09:37
Okay, so Mr Lester Sharples, he's someone who is known to you?

Gareth Hales
2:09:43
I don't know him very well, but I have heard of him.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:09:45
Okay. Well, he's a senior member of the church, as I believe are you. Can I just check? You are a member of the church's Global Advisory Panel?

Gareth Hales
2:09:55
No, I'm not on the global advisory panel, no, that's not my role.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:09:59
OK. Mr Sharples, who is a senior member of the church, has said in the public space that this meeting and that you were at attendance in attendance with it at it

Gareth Hales
2:10:13
now I had two meetings with him with business I hear it at our premises and we spoke briefly about the campaign, but I haven't heard or seen from him since.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:10:32
Church discussed the employment of right-wing activists. to give you some names. Morgan C Jonas, Chris De Bruyne, Lawrence McIntyre, Harrison Maclean, Matt Trei or Joel Davis? Any or all of those to disrupt campaign activities during the 2025 federal election?

Gareth Hales
2:10:55
The only two names I know is Morgan and Chris.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:10:57
yes of Do you agree that the your church, you being one of them, employed those gentlemen to disrupt electoral campaign activities during the last federal election?

Gareth Hales
2:11:11
Certainly not. I never discussed that I'm not

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:11:18
asking you if you discuss them, Mr Hales, I'm asking if you or other members of the group that mesh in Sydney on the first of April 2025 discuss the prospect of employing these activists and paying them to disrupt campaign activities, including activities of the Minister of Australia, during the 2025 Federal I

Gareth Hales
2:11:42
can't talk for other members of the group, but Santé most definitely did not employ Morgan on press. Furthermore, I support, as you said, right wing activists to harass or intimidate the Prime Minister or any government official.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:12:00
Okay. Mr Hales, have you had any dealings with a gentleman by the name of Sam Jackson Hope?

Gareth Hales
2:12:09
I met Sam Jackson-Hogue once on the campaign trail. I think it was up at Carneford, to him for three minutes just a quick update on how the general election was going.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:12:22
You understand that he was a representative and a member of the team for Mr Peter Dutton, the leader of the opposition at the last federal election?

Gareth Hales
2:12:31
Yes, I'm aware that he was on Peter Dutton's team.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:12:34
And was that the capacity in which you met with him as a member of the team for the leader of the opposition at the last federal election?

Gareth Hales
2:12:45
No, I just met him as a private person.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:12:49
So what were the circumstances of that meeting Mr Hales?

Gareth Hales
2:12:55
It was up at a petrol station and stood up and was there and a whole bunch of people round him. He was giving a speech about fuel.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:13:09
You were just there in your capacity as a private citizen, not as a senior member of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church?

Gareth Hales
2:13:17
I definitely was a private citizen

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:13:19
citizen. the Leader of the Opposition just happened to have a conversation with you at that point? Have you ever had a personal conversation yourself with Peter Dutton? I

Gareth Hales
2:13:32
I met Peter Dut time Spoke to him passing. He had a lot of people around him. He had a very busy agenda. So, no, he didn't speak to him for long.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:13:42
Okay. Mr Hales, it's alleged that your brother Dean told business owners within the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church, and I quote, if the libs get in, you will more than make up for any lost profit associated with members of the church's involvement with the in the in the election Did you give any of your paid time off to campaign during the campaign?

Gareth Hales
2:14:04
No, definitely not. We were busy at that time in business, so I didn't want any of my staff to have time off to campaign. If they did, it would have been in their private time.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:14:18
And just finally, your father, who is the elect vessel, is the head of your church. Would you agree that people sometimes refer to him as the elect vessel?

Gareth Hales
2:14:28
No, we only refer to the elect vessel in Paul, because it's scripture, but Dad doesn't like the term elect vessel and no, we never, I've never used it as he's saying no.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:14:41
Okay, do you have to ask him for permission to, would you have to ask him for permission to, for example, participate in electoral activities as you did in 2025? Would you expect that that would be something that he would expect to be made aware of, that sort of activity?

Gareth Hales
2:15:00
No, not at all. I wouldn't have to ask any permission off him.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:15:04
So as a members of the

Gareth Hales
2:15:05
got my own father, I've got my own household, I've got my own family. I don't have to. Thank you. check off everything with him. Absolutely not.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:15:16
members of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church globally are watching this testimony today, members of the church are free to do what they want and act as they like when it comes to

Gareth Hales
2:15:33
all got a democratic right to participate in an election. Faith and participation are not related.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:15:42
Did you vote in the last federal election, Mr House?

Unidentified speaker
2:15:47
No I didn't.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:15:48
Can I ask you why that would be if you cared so much about the proceedings that you decided to volunteer on multiple occasions?

Gareth Hales
2:15:56
Sure. I believe I have a religious duty to abstain from voting but that doesn't remove my interest in the country's future and direction.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:16:06
What do you think would happen if everybody abstained from voting Mr House?

Gareth Hales
2:16:09
It wouldn't be an election, would it?

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:16:14
Which might put paid to the democratic don't you think?

Unidentified speaker
2:16:21
Good well, Last question.

Dr Monique Ryan MP
2:16:26
One last question Mr Hales, why is it that members of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church don't take the oath when they appear in front of parliamentary committees?

Gareth Hales
2:16:35
I haven't got my Bible in front of me but there's many scriptures that we're not to swear on the Bible.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:16:41
Dr Ryan, it's not a requirement for members to give an oath, so. you. Senator Mulholland.

Senator Corinne Mulholland
2:16:52
Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Mr Hales, for accepting the committee's invitation to appear today. In your opening statement, you said that you don't condone unlawful or aggressive conduct and you didn't witness any unlawful or aggressive conduct on the polling booths and the pre polling booths that you attended during the campaign. What about in chat groups to do with the election that you remember of? Did you see any unlawful and aggressive conduct related to the election in any chat groups that you were involved in?

Gareth Hales
2:17:29
I definitely, definitely not. Like I said, if I saw poor behaviour or bad behaviour or aggression or harassment, that's not me and I don't agree with that behaviour. I don't believe it belongs in election processes.

Senator Corinne Mulholland
2:17:46
In response to Ms Campbell's questioning you said that you were active in some WhatsApp chats. Were you active in a WhatsApp chat called Queensland Albo Events?

Gareth Hales
2:18:03
I don't believe so. I was invited to a number of groups but I didn't participate in them and I remember being dropped off some group chats about two weeks afterwards.

Unidentified speaker
2:18:15
After the election or two weeks after you were added?

Gareth Hales
2:18:18
I think two weeks after I was there.

Senator Corinne Mulholland
2:18:22
There are media reports that you were a member of the Queensland Albo Events WhatsApp group and that you were added by Lloyd Hutchinson.

Unidentified speaker
2:18:39
Are the WhatsApp chats function and that app you've said that you are chats for business, yeah.

Senator Corinne Mulholland
2:18:49
and you were added to a chat called Queensland Albo but you're saying that you're going to wear it but don't recall i

Unidentified speaker
2:18:59
recall that.

Senator Corinne Mulholland
2:19:02
documents presented to the Sydney morning herald uh including screenshots of the queens and elbow events show you do use the WhatsApp 2025. And a chat group was used to tail and heckle and intimidate politicians and candidates and and people including the Prime Minister. consider that to be unlawful or aggressive behaviour?

Gareth Hales
2:19:35
I was going to say the tale of Heckle is unlawful, but I wouldn't agree with it and I wouldn't participate in it. I'd just like to ask the actual, who actually wrote that article, was that Michael Bachelard? Anything he says, I would take with a. With a complete pinch. He's just been attacking our church for 20 years, but he doesn't know you make it up.

Senator Corinne Mulholland
2:20:07
In this example, it's not his allegations, it's actually screenshots provided to him of this chat. Those are provided pieces of evidence in an article, so it isn't just someone's say so. As a journalist, it is evidence in that story. I just want to come back to your point that you say that you don't see this being unlawful, the behaviour of hailing and harassing people. I mean, that's behaviour that is tantement to stalking, repeated. patterns of behaviour surveilling and harassing people to cause fear and intimidation, that's town scimitar stack to stalking behaviour. You don't think that's an issue?

Gareth Hales
2:20:50
No, no, I don't agree with it at all. I don't and I don't support it.

Senator Corinne Mulholland
2:20:58
Right. So in these chat groups, there is also discussion around engaging with known far right personalities who attend white supremacy and neo-Nazis events. And in this chat that you were a member of the ALBO events there is a chat on the 12th of April where one individual who was engaged to harass politicians asked, quote, do you need bank details for payment or do you guys work on a cash system?

Gareth Hales
2:21:35
So... No, I had no contact. I've had no contact with neo-Nazis and I completely reject their views.

Senator Corinne Mulholland
2:21:43
In this same article from the 14th of September, Mr Hales, four sources have said that you were at a secret meeting between members of the Brethren Church and far-right activists and a golf course in Sydney, in the first days of the election to talk about this plot to pale, harass, stork, surveil politicians and candidates, including the Prime Minister. Were you at that meeting?

Unidentified speaker
2:22:15
No, I haven't had meetings with far-right protesters. Thank you for the

Senator Corinne Mulholland
2:22:22
You were not at a meeting of a single golf course in the election to. talk about behaviour that included and, tactics that included, stalking and following and using various apps to surveil the Prime Minister and his location to then see people who are being paid for to go and interrupt and harass the Prime Minister and candidates. You were not at such a meeting at a golf course in Sydney in the first week of the game?

Gareth Hales
2:22:51
No, the only meetings I've had at the golf business meetings, business related, nothing to do with stalking, following, all these other things that you're speaking about

Senator Corinne Mulholland
2:23:03
The four sources in this article have placed you at that meeting.

Gareth Hales
2:23:13
No, I would not have to. I could check the question on notice, but no.

Senator Corinne Mulholland
2:23:20
If you If you could take the question on notice, that would be appreciated. Just so there's no avoidance of any doubt because there is evidence on the record from four sources who have said that you were there. you, back to you. Thank you.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:23:38
We don't have time for The

Ben Small MP
2:23:43
Thanks very much, Chair. And thanks for your time today, Mr. Hales. I could just run through a couple to things, I guess it's fair to say obviously through Sante Global that you're a businessman, that's your main occupation.

Gareth Hales
2:23:59
Yeah, that's correct. He's a businessman. Sorry, go on.

Ben Small MP
2:24:06
Is that what led you to sort of get involved in a personal capacity in the 2025 campaign?

Gareth Hales
2:24:18
I was a concerned businessman and I belong to a lot of business groups, and that's church and non -church, mainly non -church. And obviously as a businessman, it gives me an opportunity to help provide for other families. We talk about the families, the backbone of society, dads and moms working through life, paying off mortgages, getting the family through. Obviously business teaches you whether the ups and downs of life, teaches you patience and wisdom and self -control. But yeah, I was concerned. and what direction the country was going and the government was going. At no point did I direct or manage or coordinate. Thank you by campaign campaign. Do

Ben Small MP
2:24:59
you remain concerned about the direction of Australia?

Gareth Hales
2:25:04
Yes ISINGING certainly do. I can say as an Australian, I care deeply about Australia. Australia gives opportunities to help persons that are struggling. It helps to raise the next generation, teaching children courage and respect and perseverance. But what Australia means to me, and this is why I'm deeply passionate about it, is that it means friendship. It's mateship,. It's. It's community. It's genuine friends that have your back through the good times and the bad times. And what I love about Australia is its democratic freedom, its natural beauty. its life, and it's storytelling.

Ben Small MP
2:25:51
Very hard to disagree with Mr Hales. Do you believe that Australians should have the same rights to participate in our democracy regardless of their religious beliefs?

Gareth Hales
2:26:02
Absolutely. As I said before, faith and politics is completely separate and different.

Ben Small MP
2:26:12
its way of

Unidentified speaker
2:26:22
I'm aware of that.

Ben Small MP
2:26:24
And just to be really clear, therefore, that your conduct in response to Dr. Ryan's question was absolutely lawful and that you were making use of an existing provision. the law in Australia.

Gareth Hales
2:26:40
Sure, that's noted. Thank you.

Ben Small MP
2:26:42
you. Thank you very much. I do want to turn as I did with Mr Bruce Hales previously to the journalism from Mr Michael Bachelard. And indeed the Sydney Morning Herald articles that Labour MPs have spent all morning quoting from. What do you know about Mr Michael Bachelard? And what has your experience with journalism been?

Gareth Hales
2:27:08
I just know, I think he met the Brethren in 07 from memory, I think we invited him to our schools and he showed him around, just tried to, to open up and be honest about everything. but since then he's been poisonous. He. He's been written articles for nearly 20 years attacking my father, attacking me, attacking the church, attacking our businesses. That It's almostody seems to be his full time occupation is to try and take down the PVCC.

He's full of lies, he's full of bias, he's full of prejudice. He doesn't tell the truth. I Well, it's openly Mr. Bachelard is listening to these will come and down, come and come around and come down and sit with us and let's chat rather than just attack us through the brakes. It was a chance to tell the real story.

Ben Small MP
2:28:05
And it sounds a lot like the invitation that the PBCC have extended. Prime Minister. Have you ever met Mr. Albanese? Mr. House?

Gareth Hales
2:28:14
No, I, I haven't. But we have read letters to him to come and sit down with us and have a chat. We understand he's under pressure as a global leader. As I said, we respect government, hit a goal, but now we'd love to sit down with him and he opened up our families, our businesses, our culture, come and talk to us and see what we're really liking in real life.

Ben Small MP
2:28:38
When two Labor Prime Ministers have described your church as a cult and subjected you to sort of public persecution and indeed the media released from this committee inviting your attendance today required you to, and I quote, show up and fess up. expect a fair and impartial treatment from the committee today?

Gareth Hales
2:28:59
Yeah, no, I thought it was a bit rough. As you said, Mr R rada, Mr Branders and Colt, they haven't, yeah, they haven't ever sat down with us and shouted to us or talked to us and then they show up and fess up. There's nothing to confess. I'm here openly to talk about any subject, any inquiry. And yeah, I do think it's a little bit of a beat up on the church, to be honest.

Ben Small MP
2:29:25
I appreciate your direct answers, thank you Mr House.

Gareth Hales
2:29:27
Obviously nothing against Catholics or Anglicans or other faiths, but I'm sure other members of faith would have gone out and participated in the election as they have a democratic right, but I haven't seen any newspaper articles about their activity.

Unidentified speaker
2:29:42
Alright, thank you Chair.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:29:45
Thank you, Mr Newman.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:29:48
most of my questions on Suntay Global Proprietary Limit have been asked by by other members, but you're the CEO, aren't you, of Sante Global, and your evidence today that no payments were made to activists or political parties from that company in relation to campaign disruptions. Is that your evidence?

Gareth Hales
2:30:17
That's correct. No payments, no funds.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:30:20
And so the media reports that talk about Sante Global being a client, they're incorrect, are they?

Unidentified speaker
2:30:29
They're incorrect.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:30:31
Okay. So why did you resign as a director of that company on September 25th?

Gareth Hales
2:30:41
I resigned from what company?

Unidentified speaker
2:30:43
As a director of the company.

Gareth Hales
2:30:47
I'm not aware that I resigned, but just nicely, Mr Newman, what relevance does that have with the 2025?

Shayne Neumann MP
2:30:54
Well, the allegations are that that company was involved in funding a far-right group, so it has relevance.

Gareth Hales
2:31:01
No, that's not true. We never fund

Shayne Neumann MP
2:31:07
Your evidence today is that you're as a private citizen choosing not to vote, that's your your you right, lawfully No,

Gareth Hales
2:31:28
I didn't. I had a very, very light touch on the election.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:31:33
You went to a number of different polling booths, you said, in a number of different seats didn't you?

Gareth Hales
2:31:39
Yeah ,avi went to three polling booths, plus Parramatta, so that was four polling booths in total.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:31:47
Well, how did that happen? For a bloke that hasn't participated, and I think your evidence would be that you don't normally participate, participate in political activity, but how did you decide in two, or went to three different polling booths in a number of different seats, how did that happen?

Gareth Hales
2:32:03
Well, the first one was Eastward. That's near an oval where I run, it's called ELS Oval. I drove past and there weren't many boys in blue. So I thought I better get out there and support. So I put a liberal t shirt and went there for half an hour and gave out pre-poll cards.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:32:22
Sorry, just one second, Mr Newman. Earlier in your evidence, Mr. Hales, you said that you encouraged you sort of were part of a video message people to participate in the election. That's at odds with the evidence you've just given there to Mr. Could you clarify, did you encourage people to participate or did you not?

Gareth Hales
2:32:45
What I said was, I. I didn't direct or coordinate, but if I was on a a call, of course, every time I'm on a a leader is expected all possible.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:32:58
I ask the question spit Mr. Hales, did you ask anyone to do anything?

Unidentified speaker
2:33:05
What?

Shayne Neumann MP
2:33:06
said you did i can't on the phone or in person or by email or anything to participate in any activities of this campaign as a private individual, did you?

Gareth Hales
2:33:23
No, it was just a general talk on the campaign or on election. People were sharing stories. But no, I wasn't directing people to carry

Shayne Neumann MP
2:33:32
out certain things That's not what I asked, Mr. Hales. I asked you, asked anyone to participate. You directed anyone.

Ben Small MP
2:33:40
Just to assist, Chair, because I think I can understand the confusion here, there's a difference between participating broadly in the election and the to direct for handing out that vote.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:33:53
Mr Small, we'll let Mr Hales ask the wasn't of you, the question was of Mr. Mr Hales. So Mr Hales, if you want to answer Mr Newman's questions.

Gareth Hales
2:34:01
Well, just the word encourage, it was people that campaigning. Yeah sure, I'll probably just encourage them to

Shayne Neumann MP
2:34:09
Just to assist So what do you mean by that? So you encouraged people? How many people are you talking about here? I don't know. You don't know how many people you asked for how they had a vote cards or campaign?

Gareth Hales
2:34:23
Well, obviously at the polling booth it just would have been the people that were there, and if I was

Shayne Neumann MP
2:34:28
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
on the phone, of your congregation or various congregations.

Gareth Hales
2:34:33
Can I just ask is there any issue with encouraging people?

Shayne Neumann MP
2:34:37
No, well it's obvious in the evidence of the Plymouth Brethren that there was a level of coordination but the church's evidence is that in fact there was no organised coordination by the church itself. But individuals may participate in this. Now you're a senior member of that congregation, The son of the most senior person in the in the world and I'm asking you a simple question Did you ask anyone in your congregation or congregation 82 of them around the country to? Participate in political campaigns Hannah had a vote cards campaign put up signs do anything and you can't give, give me a straight answer I'm just asking a simple question

Gareth Hales
2:35:18
I'm trying to give you a straight answer But you're asking me about five questions at once. They just ask me one question.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:35:24
I'll you, did you ask anyone?

Gareth Hales
2:35:29
No, the answer is.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:35:32
So. What did you mean by your early evidence about encouraging people and, you know, being on chat, you know, chat room conversation? What did you mean by that that that odds with what you said earlier?

Gareth Hales
2:35:42
No, it's not. It's just people that were already campaigning. I was just encouraging

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:35:47
How did they come to be already campaigning campaigning Hale?

Gareth Hales
2:35:51
They. Are individual businessmen that a concern about the direction of the country and you are about the leadership.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:35:57
You were in a chat group with everyone that was campaigning. No So talk to us about your encouragement of their campaigning. Like how, how was it just one-on-one? Was it in a group? Like who were What were you encouraging and how were you encouraging them?

Gareth Hales
2:36:18
Well as I said I wasn't managing or directing or coordinating, there might have been a few millions I went to, just a general chat on how they...

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:36:25
Who were you encouraging and how were you encouraging them?

Gareth Hales
2:36:30
Well You were in a chat group with of people that were there.

Unidentified speaker
2:36:34
Was it more than one person?

Gareth Hales
2:36:38
I couldn't say the exact number. It might have been five or six persons.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:36:41
Okay. And what did they do with that encouragement?

Unidentified speaker
2:36:46
Well, Mr Lax-Alba, What should issue with encourage?

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:36:51
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
My issue is Mr. Hales is that we've had thousands and thousands of members members. of your church That have flooded polling booths across the country and that you have just said that you've, Mr Small,

Andrew Gee MP
2:37:14
Show some respect and courtesy and follow the rules of the committee. Thank you and do it politely through the chair.

Ben Small MP
2:37:21
I am talking to the chair and I didn't hear you start with a point of order either Mr G. So pipe down.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:37:26
Thank you Mr Small, I'd like to ask a question. You'll note that I've ceded a lot of my time to other members of this committee and I'd like to ask a question to clarify this. You've given evidence, so your father's given evidence that he gave a sermon which encouraged people to be fervent in prayer about good government, right? Then there is an interpretation of that sermon in which you appeared in a video with your two other brothers. you have just given evidence that you have encouraged people to turn up on polling booths and words have been used to the extent of, you know, let's get our ground other members of this committee and I'd read out before.

Make sure our who's a man so there's a clear link here and that is what we're interested in because there are rules and laws in this country about mass involvement in political campaigns and transparency around that. That's why these questions are being asked. So it's important for us to understand, Mr Hales, to what extent you encouraged members of your church to participate in the 2025 election election at such scale across the country do you accept that do you expect these are reasonable questions to ask given that context

Gareth Hales
2:38:44
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
really about the rules and laws we didn't break any rules we didn't break any laws and you talk about thousands and thousands how do you actually know that they were better. members of Plymouth Brethren Church? Can I continue my question? Did they wear signs or did they wear banners at the

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:39:04
It's been well documented Mr. House. Hales. Mr. Newman. So, sorry, do you accept that it's reasonable, sorry, my question, which wasn't answered, so I know you did answer it, you said it wasn't acceptable for us to ask these questions. Okay, Mr Newman.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:39:19
Can I then talk about this, any discussions, did you have, you met Sam Jackson-Hope and Peter Dutton at a petrol station, where, where was that?

Gareth Hales
2:39:30
I don't remember the exact petrol station, it was up at Carlingford near a little shop there.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:39:37
Okay, alright, prior to that meeting, did you have any discussions, telephone conversations or meetings with Sam Jackson-Hope or anyone in Peter Dutton's office about any, any activity concerning the federal election in 2025?

Gareth Hales
2:39:54
No, absolutely not, Mr Newman.. I had no I had no telephone conversations with those people.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:39:59
So magically and mysteriously you just happened to have turned up to a petrol station where the leader of the opposition and his staff and there was a press event. How did that happen?

Gareth Hales
2:40:12
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
It wasn't magic or mysterious, it was just known that he was going to turn up there because he was giving a speech on fuel. turn up there because tanker there or something. There's lots of people. There was hundreds of people.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:40:26
How did you know, Mr Hales? I mean, I've been involved in lots of campaigns in 40 years of the Labor... I Labor Party membership and and 20 years in federal parliament nearly. and during federal federal campaigns, leaders don't often tell even the press gallery took quite life. How did you know about this event?

Gareth Hales
2:40:42
You heard Mr Newman word

Shayne Neumann MP
2:40:45
News So he told you, he told you, and then it went on, how did you know about this event? If you claim you're not involved in any campaigning?

Gareth Hales
2:40:54
I don't actually recall, but it was probably a friend of a friend.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:41:00
A friend of a friend told you about this event and just happened to be there. And you had a conversation with Sam Jackson, who on media reports, was coordinating the activity of members of the Plymouthrahren or participants in the church, who were in the campaign did you have any discussions within that day about the activities of you or any members of your congregation in any marginal seats around the country

Gareth Hales
2:41:27
no not at all i had no idea supposedly was a point of contact i only found that later on articles.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:41:40
to get involved in the campaign.

Gareth Hales
2:41:49
Did you around a petrol station, yeah, so that was contact. Yeah, is that what you mean, or?

Shayne Neumann MP
2:41:55
Yes, well anything, no, you're not aware of any people in the leadership of your congregation having any contact with the Sam Jackson Hope or anyone at all? Not aware of that at all?

Gareth Hales
2:42:11
Respectfully, respectfully, Mr Newman, I can't answer for them.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:42:15
But you're not aware of any activity, you're personally not aware of an activity? No, I'm not aware. Okay. If you're not aware in relation to that, why did the Liberal Party review describe the Plymouth Brethren Church as a support group of the Liberal Party in the campaign? And did you take take any steps to disabuse them of that statement?

Gareth Hales
2:42:39
I wasn't aware that the other Liberals regarded us.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:42:46
Regarded us? What do you mean by that?

Gareth Hales
2:42:50
Just as per your comment.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:42:53
So you just said regarded us. OK, what do you mean by that? Regarded the Plymouth Brethren members, the congregants that were there helping the Liberal Party and National

Unidentified speaker
2:43:02
Party? No, I'm not talking about Plymouth Brethren.

Unidentified speaker
2:43:03
What did you mean by that?

Gareth Hales
2:43:03
Us? I'm not talking about Plymouth Brethren. I'm talking about concerned businessmen that may well have campaigned in their own electoral right.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:43:14
No-one's denying you've got a right to... I mean, I'm a member of a Baptist congregation. I don't deny anyone in my congregation has a right to campaign in election campaigns, but you just said about us. What did you mean by us?

Gareth Hales
2:43:29
You don't mind Baptist people participating in election, why are? You're so up about members of our church participating in election.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:43:39
Well, with respect to members of a Baptist congregation or the Catholics, the Amherst didn't turn up in their thousands on polling booze or campaign activities, and I don't call any ser is up to us to ask you questions, not you to ask us questions, with respect. So I'm asking you, what do you mean by us?

Ben Small MP
2:44:09
With respect, Chair, point of order, Mr Newman is asking Mr Hales to account for the Liberal report? That is completely

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:44:19
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
Mr Small, the question was, what do you mean by us?

Ben Small MP
2:44:25
the Liberal Party's report. can't do that. Mr Newman can badger him all he likes.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:44:32
I'm not I'm asking him to respond and clarify his own words.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:44:37
Yes, he's asking for a clarification on his own words.

Gareth Hales
2:44:40
You're making a big deal on us, us, these fellow Australians. We're all Australians here, and that's us.

Unidentified speaker
2:44:48
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
That's a very good interpretation of what we really meant. one in three? bad

Ben Small MP
2:44:56
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
Now Mr Newman is trying perilously close to where Mr G was in making an accusation that the witness was just unproofed.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:45:02
Final question Mr Newman, let's move on from that line of questioning. Thank you.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:45:07
Did you interpret Make. Australia happy, smiling and did you interpret that as a call to our political activity or did Did you think that your father was just talking about faith and fervency and prayer? Is that what you really truly believe?

Gareth Hales
2:45:25
Yeah, I said happy. I thought I could go back and be a happy dad, I guess.

Shayne Neumann MP
2:45:32
Can I find a final question? and other members of Parliament. So,

Alicia Payne MP
2:46:01
We've obviously received countless reports in evidence to this committee and it's in the public reporting that members of your church participated numbers and in a manner and scale that has never been seen seen before in living memory at a federal election. What knowledge did you have of the national operations?

Gareth Hales
2:46:23
I had no knowledge of the national. operations. then the only way I found out are supposedly hundreds or thousands, whatever the numbers you're saying. I only found out of your church participated in numbers and in a manner and a scale

Alicia Payne MP
2:46:39
But you were at those polling booths and in numbers and in a manner and a scale that has never been seen before in living memory of people. We. We all saw it. There were people en masse and behaving in a coordinated manner Are you saying that that was just a coincidence that members of your church who don't normally vote and many hold a belief that they shouldn't vote just coincidentally showed up en masse all around the country at polling booths?

Gareth Hales
2:47:07
A few polls I went to, there wasn't members of the church, hardly any members there. and might have been 3 or 4. Most of the people I spoke to were not part of my church. were just normal either tats and mums and their kids and or it was just either Labor or Liberal campaigners.

Unidentified speaker
2:47:30
the evidence concern you?

Gareth Hales
2:47:35
If there's any war or bad or harassment or intimidation, mums, yeah, that poop concerns me. I don't agree with that.

Alicia Payne MP
2:47:42
And do you see any connection between... I mean, The video, the message that was sent by you and the actions of your members.

Unidentified speaker
2:47:55
the

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:48:02
It's been reported and you've sought to take on notice the exact wording, but I don't, I was going to ask these clarifications at the end, but been reported following your father. it was streamed on GMS sent by two brothers saying words to the that it was streamed on GMS, that you in that video following your father's sermon, encouraging people to attend and man the boos on election?

Gareth Hales
2:48:55
I have to check the source of that. your two brothers Okay,

Alicia Payne MP
2:49:03
So you don't see any connection between that sermon and the actions of the members?

Gareth Hales
2:49:15
When my dad gives a sermon he's talking about the Bible and the Word of God and inspiring things about scripture. He doesn't refer to political events. He's just giving us the Word of God and yeah, just good things. Good things, good scriptures, good topics to talk about. We don't then fire up into elections because of one line he says in his sermon. I mean that's. Honestly that is ridiculous. Like a one line that Australia smile again or But an

Alicia Payne MP
2:49:51
interpretation was made in a video and what was that asking people to do?

Gareth Hales
2:49:59
Do you mean, interpretation? What do you mean by interpretation?

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:50:01
Well, he's taken Well, he's taken the fact that he appeared on a video on notice. So let's see what the response is there.

Alicia Payne MP
2:50:07
Okay. Well, it's been reported that your father, Mr Bruce Hales, gave a sermon on Pauline Hanson and said, so I quote, so I hope that red haired lady gets a chance, more power to redheads. Have you interpreted that sermon?

Unidentified speaker
2:50:24
How do you know he's referring to Pauline Hanson because she's got red hair, I guess?

Alicia Payne MP
2:50:31
No, I think it was, it was in the reports.

Gareth Hales
2:50:39
Just nicely, so what if my dad says something about someone with red hair, like really what is the big deal? And why are we talking about Pauline Hanson now? Like how is she part of the 2025 inquiry.

Alicia Payne MP
2:50:56
We're just interested how you and your church have interpreted that message, that sermon from Mr Bruce Hales.

Gareth Hales
2:51:04
I don't know how we interpret sermons. I'd suggest you come along for one of our meetings and listen to us take meetings. You might actually get some light as to who we are and what we do and what we think instead of just relying on Michael Bachelard's articles, which are full of lies.

Alicia Payne MP
2:51:27
Would you instruct your members to campaign at a federal election again?

Unidentified speaker
2:51:30
I don't know. I mean I didn't instruct him to campaign in this last one.

Unidentified speaker
2:51:41
Encourage. Who knows what's around the corner. Don't know. You used the word encourage.

Gareth Hales
2:51:47
Encourage is not instruct. It. It's slightly different.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:51:52
Thanks, Ms Payne. Thank you. Lastly,, Mr G.

Andrew Gee MP
2:51:56
Mr Hales, thank you for your evidence today. I just want to take you back to this meeting at the golf club on the first of April 2025. I think your evidence was that Sante paid for that. Is that correct? The room for the meeting? Correct.. I think agreed that there was the a Morgan C Jonas there? Is that correct?

Unidentified speaker
2:52:22
Morgan C Jonas was there.

Andrew Gee MP
2:52:24
So he wasn't there? Okay. Was Chris De Bruyne there?

Gareth Hales
2:52:30
Chris wasn't there.

Unidentified speaker
2:52:35
Who was there?

Gareth Hales
2:52:37
It was a business meeting. It was some clients, it was It was customers, it was suppliers.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:52:45
So you know who wasn't there. was there?

Gareth Hales
2:52:50
I don't recall, I'd have to get a list

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:52:53
So you have a And you, I think, agreed that there a recollection of who was there?

Gareth Hales
2:52:58
No, I just happen to know those two guys weren't there.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:53:02
If you could take that on notice, please.

Unidentified speaker
2:53:04
Was Lawrence McIntyre there, Mr Hales? I don't what sort of business meeting was it?

Gareth Hales
2:53:22
Sondai. Just about deals, projects, clients, operations, project management.

Andrew Gee MP
2:53:31
Okay, so you booked a meeting at the golf club but you don't remember who was there?

Gareth Hales
2:53:37
I Just so you know, we have hundreds of meetings at this golf club. We use it regularly.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:53:44
It's a good golf club. It's in my lecture, it's fantastic. I'm not surprised you have meetings there.

Andrew Gee MP
2:53:49
Have you ever had any have any contact with Morgan C Jonas during the period of the federal election campaign in the lead up to the election? section.

Gareth Hales
2:53:58
the more than once at my office.

Andrew Gee MP
2:54:01
And what's the nature with him?

Gareth Hales
2:54:04
It was just a brief meeting. He wanted to talk to me about his wood-lopping business. So his what business? He touched on the campaign. He touched on the campaign briefly and then he went and heard or saw of him again

Andrew Gee MP
2:54:23
and what what sort of conversation did you have with him about the campaign just

Gareth Hales
2:54:29
in the general direction that the government was heading and then geared nothing off from that.

Andrew Gee MP
2:54:35
Did you talk to him about campaigning in the 2025 federal election?

Gareth Hales
2:54:42
I was introduced by another business colleague. We had a meeting with him, I don't know what they were talking about, and I came in briefly. Probably had about a 20 minute discussion.

Andrew Gee MP
2:54:53
And Chris De Bruyne, do you know him?

Gareth Hales
2:54:58
Yes, I was introduced to him by one of my colleagues.

Andrew Gee MP
2:55:02
And what's the nature of the relationship with him that you have?

Gareth Hales
2:55:06
I don't really have a relationship with him. I met him twice, briefly.

Unidentified speaker
2:55:10
Where did you meet him?

Gareth Hales
2:55:11
Yeah, briefly, he's just met him here at the office. he wanted to ask me some advice about his business, but then he spoke briefly about the campaign, but then I never heard or saw of him again. I've got no personal relationship with him. I've got no business relationship with him.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:55:33
What business did he ask about?

Gareth Hales
2:55:38
I can't remember. I think he's self-employed.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:55:43
Does Australian Firebrand ring a bell? Does Australian Firebrand ring a bell?

Gareth Hales
2:55:49
No, it doesn't.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:55:51
So he wasn't asking you about advice for his business, Australian Firebrand. Is that your evidence?

Gareth Hales
2:55:56
No, it wasn't.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:56:00
Sorry, you don't recall or he wasn't? Which one is

Gareth Hales
2:56:05
[unclear]

Andrew Gee MP
2:56:11
Are you aware that Mr De Bruyne is a far-right wing activist?

Gareth Hales
2:56:16
No, I wasn't aware of that.

Andrew Gee MP
2:56:18
Or Morgan C Jonas, who is associated with the Freedom Party of Victoria?

Gareth Hales
2:56:23
No, I didn't know that.

Andrew Gee MP
2:56:25
I recall seeing Mr Jonas's name authorising Corflutes and placards in. in the electorate of Kallera, are you aware that he was doing that in the federal election campaign?

Unidentified speaker
2:56:38
No, I didn't, I wasn't aware at all at all.

Andrew Gee MP
2:56:45
Former Liberal Party cabinet minister, Linda Reynolds, has stated publicly that she was approached by members of the Plymouth Brethren Church to get access. The Liberal Party's AEC database called Feedback. Were you aware of that?

Unidentified speaker
2:57:05
No, and I've never heard of Linda Reynolds. the

Andrew Gee MP
2:57:27
it concern me? Did it concern you that the members of your church were trying to get access to the AEC database?

Gareth Hales
2:57:39
It doesn't really concern me because I didn't know about it.

Andrew Gee MP
2:57:42
Yeah, but knowing about it now, does that concern you that you had members of your Point

Unidentified speaker
2:57:48
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
of order, the previous election not about what any witness might think about reports in last week's paper that's what... I'm sorry. mr.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:58:00
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
small mr. small is the deputy was asking in his first questions about news articles from about a week. If it's good enough for the Deputy Chair, it's good enough for Mr G.

Andrew Gee MP
2:58:21
Herald, says that in the final weeks ofody 2025 federal election campaign, which correct me if I'm wrong is what we're dealing with here today, she says she was approached by two members of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church because she knew them to be members and they wanted access to the AEC database. So does that concern you Mr Hales?

Unidentified speaker
2:58:40
But what makes it that she knows that anyone is a member of the church?

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
2:58:44
The question's not of you, it's of Mr Hales.

Unidentified speaker
2:58:47
So just pipe down and let the witness answer the question please.

Unidentified speaker
2:58:54
I would love you to speak.

Gareth Hales
2:58:57
I can't answer for them. and

Andrew Gee MP
2:58:59
Mr Hales, I'm asking you, the question was Mr H, does it concern, concern you that I'm telling you now that Ms Reynolds was approached by two brethren church in the final weeks of the 2025 federal election campaign to get access to the AEC database that is held by the Liberal Party. It's called feedback.

Gareth Hales
2:59:23
Happy to look into it. I don't know anything about it.

Andrew Gee MP
2:59:25
Does it concern you, Mr Hales? Does it concern you, Mr Hales, that was the question.

Gareth Hales
2:59:32
It just doesn't concern me because I didn't know about it. And now you've brought it up, you think I should be concerned? I'll look into it for you I'm back... [unclear]

Andrew Gee MP
2:59:40
Does it concern you, given that you've said that no members of the church were engaged in coordinating [unclear] partisan electioneering? Does it concern you that two members of your church were approaching a former cabinet minister in the Liberal National government to get access to the AEC database?

Ben Small MP
3:00:02
Yeah, this question should be taken on notice

Andrew Gee MP
3:00:04
Could you stop, could you stop interrupting please, Mr Small. It's highly disrespectful and against the rules of this committee.

Ben Small MP
3:00:10
Point of order, when the question has been taken on notice under [unclear]

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
3:00:14
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
But that's, that's for Mr Hales to determine, Mr Small, not you. Let him decide whether he answers a question or whether he doesn't. You're not here to answer questions on behalf of Mr the Plymouth Brethren.. They are. They are.

Andrew Gee MP
3:00:30
They are. As am I. Then why don't you abide by them instead of running a protection racket for a witness?

Unidentified speaker
3:00:34
Now, let's get on with it.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
3:00:36
I'm here to abide by the standing orders, Mr Small, and make judgements, not you. So, I would like Mr G to ask his question again and for Mr H, either answer it. Take it on notice as per the standing orders without interruption please we've established that the questionings in order uh and it has been since the start of this inquiry for government and non-government members.

Andrew Gee MP
3:00:59
Mr Hales, does it concern you that I'm telling you that Ms Reynolds a former Liberal Party cabinet minister says that she was approached by two members of your church to get access to the AAC database?

Gareth Hales
3:01:14
Yes now you've asked me questions three times I'm happy to take it on notice .—Yes,

Andrew Gee MP
3:01:19
So it does concern you?

Unidentified speaker
3:01:21
it concerns me.

Gareth Hales
3:01:23
It clearly concerns you, so therefore I'll mirror and reflect your concern.

Andrew Gee MP
3:01:29
Well, Mr Hales, quite frankly, I think that this issue concerns the whole Australian-public. If members of your church are being given access, to the Australian Electoral Commission database, I think that is an issue of national concern. It's not just me, Mr Hales. you aware that...

Gareth Hales
3:01:48
Once again, once again, I'll take it on notice.

Andrew Gee MP
3:01:51
Were any members of your church, Mr Hales, engaging in telephone canvassing during the 2025 federal election campaign that you're aware of?

Gareth Hales
3:02:04
I wasn't aware of it at the time and I did see a press article, might have been months later, something about it. That's all I know about it.

Andrew Gee MP
3:02:14
Did you carry out any investigations as to what your, the members of your church were doing, telephone canvassing and the nature of their canvassing when you read

Gareth Hales
3:02:25
That's not my role. I don't have an official role in the church. I believe you had Lloyd Grimshaw on camera a few weeks ago and that'd be a question directed to him. That's his role.

Andrew Gee MP
3:02:40
Would you personally be concerned though if members of the Brethren. and church were telephone canvassing on behalf of the Liberal or National parties during the 2025 Federal campaign.

Gareth Hales
3:02:52
Yes, well now you've said concern five times, yes. I'm very concerned.

Andrew Gee MP
3:02:59
No, because that's before this committee is that you just essentially essentially appeared at polling booths to participate in election campaigns. There was no coordination or direction or any activity of that nature on behalf of the church. That's your evidence isn't it?

Gareth Hales
3:03:26
100%. There was no coordination and no direction from the church.

Andrew Gee MP
3:03:31
Can you understand Mr Hales, how someone in my position, views your evidence with a great deal of scepticism, given that I personally saw a members of your church following

Ben Small MP
3:03:43
Point of order, Chair, Chair, Chair. We have been through this. This is an an accusation of untruthfulness at the most generous. We are now at 12 minutes of this nonsense, which is twice as long as the Coalition have had. This has got to stop.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
3:03:59
He's a non-government member, if you could just ask the question without the reflection.

Andrew Gee MP
3:04:04
Can you understand And how someone in my position views that with scepticism, given that I saw members of your church following me around en masse election campaign in numbers. Do you understand how how me would be skeptical about that?

Gareth Hales
3:04:21
Yes, I hear you and I understand what you're

Andrew Gee MP
3:04:25
going to take over that?

Gareth Hales
3:04:29
What action would you like me to take?

Andrew Gee MP
3:04:31
I'm asking you what action you're going to take

Ben Small MP
3:04:35
Hang on, hang on, again, standing orders, relevance to the terms of inquiry What is going on here, Chair?

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
3:04:42
We're talking

Ben Small MP
3:04:43
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
[unclear] he doesn't have a formal role in the church that you allowed the imputation of lying just now and then he is badgering this witness when he says he does not have a formal role What is going on here?

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
3:04:58
Mr Small, he's... Mr Gee is asking about behaviour at the 2025 election at his own seat...

Ben Small MP
3:05:03
Nobody's asking...

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
3:05:04
Yeah, and he's asking... yeah, and I think that's a fair question. It's a fair question. That's a fair question. Given it's about behaviour at the 2025 election, which is, which is point number one of our terms of reference so again it's up to mr Hales if that's his answer that's his answer but let him answer again please mr small You seem to be answering the question.

Gareth Hales
3:05:40
me know answer the question now

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
3:05:41
I would love you to answer the question, Mr. Hales.

Gareth Hales
3:05:43
Okay. It's up to Mr. Hales, if that's his answer that's I don't have a formal role in the PBCC, pass it on to the relevant directors who would probably be Grimshaw.

Andrew Gee MP
3:05:58
Mr Hales, during the 2025 federal election campaign, the evidence before this committee is that members of the church, thousands, were engaged in political campaigning on on behalf of the Liberal, National and also One Nation parties. It just defies belief. It just defies, but your den. Your denials, Mr. Hales and that of your father, that the church had no role in coordinating any of these people and that everyone just miraculously turned up and engaged in that activity just Can you understand how people find that whole line, which you're asking us to buy, very difficult to believe?

Unidentified speaker
3:06:47
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
Point of order. yeah? rich have been like a broken record, and the rich have been

Unidentified speaker
3:06:51
like a broken record, Mr Small.

Ben Small MP
3:06:53
Mr G has just alleged. That the witness has been lying. That is a most egregious breach of orders. I would ask that the question, if there is such a thing in there, be rephrased.

Andrew Gee MP
3:07:04
That's not that's not what I've been asking at all.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
3:07:07
I interpreted the question as Mr Turey you understand the juxtaposition between the evidence public domain, and the evidence of this committee has received, in again and let Mr Hales answer the question.

Andrew Gee MP
3:07:31
It's the old Liberal Party protection racket. Can you answer the question, Mr Hales?

Unidentified speaker
3:07:34
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
No, no, no, no, no, I'm not going Can we withdraw that, please? the chair of committees to have this Hansard reviewed, and Mr Jean might think that's hilarious.

Unidentified speaker
3:07:41
[Crosstalk: more than one person is speaking at once here, so this passage is unclear and may be wrong.]
to Could you withdraw that please? That was he's withdrawn.

Ben Small MP
3:07:51
Thanks let that garbage go unchecked on Hales.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
3:07:53
He's withdrawn that comment, Mr Small.

Andrew Gee MP
3:07:58
So, Mr Hales, can you answer the question, please?

Unidentified speaker
3:08:01
Just ask the question again and I'll answer it.

Andrew Gee MP
3:08:03
Given that the evidence before this committee is that thousands of members of your Your church actively participated in a coordinated coordinated way in the 2025 federal election Campaign. Can you understand how people might find the church's denial that it had any role in coordinatingating or directing any of those members is very difficult to believe. It defies belief. I,

Unidentified speaker
3:08:37
can't understand it's difficult to believe but they weren't

Andrew Gee MP
3:08:44
members and what you are selling, but I do appreciate you giving evidence.

Jerome Laxale MP (Chair)
3:08:47
Mr Hales, thank you for your attendance here today. You'll be sent a transcript of your evidence to assist you with answering questions taken on notice today and you'll have an opportunity to request corrections to transcription errors. members also have seven days to submit more questions on notice as resolved by this committee. Once you've received the transcript you are asked to provide responses to any questions on notice weeks. Please forward these and any additional responses to the committee's it. on the committee's website as submissions to the inquiry. I declare this meeting closed.